paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Sept 20, 2015 9:29:11 GMT
It was the same for Harry as well. If it was ok and acceptable then, surely it is now as well. Harry mainly got stick on here after he failed to push the team on once we were back in the Premier League. Ramsey was being slaughtered before he even had a chance (I'm talking about this season, not the Premier League). Harry got dogs abuse for playing one up front, especialky at home?
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Post by Marc on Sept 20, 2015 9:52:48 GMT
Harry mainly got stick on here after he failed to push the team on once we were back in the Premier League. Ramsey was being slaughtered before he even had a chance (I'm talking about this season, not the Premier League). Harry got dogs abuse for playing one up front, especialky at home? Not from me he didn't. Fans will always have a go at managers when they don't agree with their decisions but Ramsey has been systematically denigrated from day one to the extent that it doesn't matter what he's done/hasn't done. Just look at my examples from earlier, he could have done nothing about Green's cock up or the ref's awful decisions against Blackburn. We could just as easily be comfortably sitting in 3rd place at the moment (and are still only 2 points off it) and we wouldn't be having his conversation but it seems that certain people are constantly on the haunches, waiting for the slightest opportunity to have a go. For the record, I never give dog's abuse to any manager. I believe everybody deserves a fair chance and, if I believe they've had their chance and it's time to go, I'll say so.
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paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Sept 21, 2015 7:23:57 GMT
If you listen to some on here and other MB's, Ramsey was the best option for the mix of kids and division one players, our new focus dictated we were going to get playing for us.
On the basis the kids and div 1 players are being loaned out or not getting a look in, is Ramsey still the best option?
He cant be the best option for both scenarios.
We have the least experienced people, responsible for the best squad (on paper) in the Championship.
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Post by Macmoish on Sept 21, 2015 8:18:00 GMT
A reasonably good argument can be made that maybe he shouldnt have been appointed.
And why he may not still be, at least on paper, the best choice, now.
BUT: He is the manager - and unless he flops, think it would be a step to far to axe him now.
If you have the resources - and we seem to - it doesn't necessarily require "The best" manager for a club to succeed.
On paper, Hughes and Redknapp should have done better, but they didnt. And the same can be said of a slew of past QPR Managers
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paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Sept 21, 2015 9:52:36 GMT
A reasonably good argument can be made that maybe he shouldnt have been appointed. And why he may not still be, at least on paper, the best choice, now. BUT: He is the manager - and unless he flops, think it would be a step to far to axe him now. If you have the resources - and we seem to - it doesn't necessarily require "The best" manager for a club to succeed. On paper, Hughes and Redknapp should have done better, but they didnt. And the same can be said of a slew of past QPR Managers Mac, what would you consider a flop? Mid table with U21's and league one players would be a great result, but mid table with a team including Green, Sandro, Phillips, Fer, Phillips and Cherry (IMO one of our best buy in years) would not be.
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Post by sharky on Sept 21, 2015 11:23:36 GMT
Sandro and Fer haven't played yet
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paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Sept 21, 2015 12:31:27 GMT
Luongo, Henry or Tozzer are good replacements until they are fit and they do not take away from the shape and balance.
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paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Sept 28, 2015 9:04:44 GMT
Im getting really pished off with all the negativity right across all the rangers messageboards towards chris, so im starting a thread in support of our teams coach! GO CHRIS!!!! Lets breath some live into this thread. Surely not everyone has jumped ship and wants Coach Ramsey gone?
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Post by harr on Sept 28, 2015 9:22:39 GMT
A clean sheet and a comfortable 2-0 win against Bolton might give Ramsey a few more games. A draw or defeat will mean 2-3 points out of our last 15 and playing some crap football in the process. 5-6 points from 5 home games wont be acceptable.
My guess is if we dont win on Saturday Ramseys days are numbered and he probably knows it even more are seeing whats gone on at Brentford.
In terms of positives to say, CR comes across as a really nice fella and sure that he is trying his utmost hardest for us. I just feel he hasnt got what it takes. I havnt any real positives to take from recent games to give Ramsey credit, the team looks weak and the Coach is starting to look beaten.
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Post by sharky on Sept 28, 2015 14:41:29 GMT
My feeling is that whoever is the manager/coach must be given a decent amount of time to embed the way they want their players to play. The last lot of players only came in a few games ago. If Ramsey is fired whoever takes his place will need at least half a season to get their game plan working. While this is happening we will lose games we should have won so the fans will demand change and you continue the cycle of firing managers/coaches and losing.
Here in Aussie Rules the West Coast Eagles changed their Head Coach at the beginning last season and changed the way they played. The initial outcomes were disastrous. By mid season the players were used to the game plan and the results improved. On Saturday they have made it to the pinnacle of Aussie Rules, the Grand Final. If they had got rid of their coach after 10 games last season, would they have made it to the Grand Final? The answer is obviously no.
Should we get rid of Ramsey after 8 games? IMO the answer is obviously no. Ramsey must stay!
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Post by rangersman on Sept 28, 2015 18:47:02 GMT
He is out of his depth , incompetent , no tactical accumen, training coach fodder at present . So i would be happy to get someone with more experience sooner rather than later .
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Dufster
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Post by Dufster on Sept 28, 2015 20:21:56 GMT
Just re read the thread and so much of it is ringing true....stand by my comments!
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paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Sept 29, 2015 5:40:39 GMT
Just re read the thread and so much of it is ringing true....stand by my comments! Me too. It is hilarious that the locals who shouted the loudest and spent the whole summer telling people their oppinion of Ramsey was wrong, are AWOL or have nothing to say.
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Post by Lonegunmen on Sept 29, 2015 7:04:10 GMT
A clean sheet and a comfortable 2-0 win against Bolton might give Ramsey a few more games. A draw or defeat will mean 2-3 points out of our last 15 and playing some crap football in the process. 5-6 points from 5 home games wont be acceptable. My guess is if we dont win on Saturday Ramseys days are numbered and he probably knows it even more are seeing whats gone on at Brentford. In terms of positives to say, CR comes across as a really nice fella and sure that he is trying his utmost hardest for us. I just feel he hasnt got what it takes. I havnt any real positives to take from recent games to give Ramsey credit, the team looks weak and the Coach is starting to look beaten. It's not like the team are trying really hard and playing well but not getting the rub of the green so to speak. This team is dire in defence and soley reliant on Charlie up front to score all the goals. I feel for Austin. But that does not excuse Ramsey.
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Post by harr on Sept 29, 2015 7:23:47 GMT
A clean sheet and a comfortable 2-0 win against Bolton might give Ramsey a few more games. A draw or defeat will mean 2-3 points out of our last 15 and playing some crap football in the process. 5-6 points from 5 home games wont be acceptable. My guess is if we dont win on Saturday Ramseys days are numbered and he probably knows it even more are seeing whats gone on at Brentford. In terms of positives to say, CR comes across as a really nice fella and sure that he is trying his utmost hardest for us. I just feel he hasnt got what it takes. I havnt any real positives to take from recent games to give Ramsey credit, the team looks weak and the Coach is starting to look beaten. It's not like the team are trying really hard and playing well but not getting the rub of the green so to speak. This team is dire in defence and soley reliant on Charlie up front to score all the goals. I feel for Austin. But that does not excuse Ramsey. Agree Andy, the defence and midfield are continually making basic errors. Well we were lucky enough to have Austin practically all last year uninjured and so far this season. He was always going to get a little injury at some stage. Its up to us to deal with it and get on with it like Harry Redknapp had to in Jan 14 for a few weeks.
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paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Sept 29, 2015 7:27:15 GMT
It's not like the team are trying really hard and playing well but not getting the rub of the green so to speak. This team is dire in defence and soley reliant on Charlie up front to score all the goals. I feel for Austin. But that does not excuse Ramsey. Agree Andy, the defence and midfield are continually making basic errors. Well we were lucky enough to have Austin practically all last year uninjured and so far this season. He was always going to get a little injury at some stage. Its up to us to deal with it and get on with it like Harry Redknapp had to in Jan 14 for a few weeks. I posted a few weeks ago that if you took the goals out, that Philllips and Austin scored/created, we would have 0 points. I just hope we don't have that amount form the next five / six weeks of games.
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Post by harr on Sept 29, 2015 7:46:56 GMT
Agree Andy, the defence and midfield are continually making basic errors. Well we were lucky enough to have Austin practically all last year uninjured and so far this season. He was always going to get a little injury at some stage. Its up to us to deal with it and get on with it like Harry Redknapp had to in Jan 14 for a few weeks. I posted a few weeks ago that if you took the goals out, that Philllips and Austin scored/created, we would have 0 points. I just hope we don't have that amount form the next five / six weeks of games. Dont forget the goals that Chery scores and assists, thats before he gets taken off of course. Had we stuck with him, Mackie wouldnt have been injured aswell. Although thats just one of those things. Thought a bad decision to take Chery off when you looked at some of the other players performances in that 30 minutes. Thankfully Paul our games are pretty reasonable over the next four games . 4 teams around us or below us, we should be able to pick up a few points . We have yet to play Derby, Boro, Reading , Brighton , Burnley yet though and we are already struggling for points, anyone that put us down as top two, must start realising now, its a pipe dream for this season. We are miles away from looking like a decent team under CR, sorry if that statement offends anyone but the table doesnt lie and we havnt beaten anyone in the top 14-15 even yet , so I think this statement is factual not negative. onwards and upwards
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kilburnhoop
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Post by kilburnhoop on Sept 29, 2015 9:03:19 GMT
Just re read the thread and so much of it is ringing true....stand by my comments! Me too. It is hilarious that the locals who shouted the loudest and spent the whole summer telling people their oppinion of Ramsey was wrong, are AWOL or have nothing to say. Even funnier when we won 3 on the bounce, silence was deafening. All go quiet again when we get back to winning ways
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paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Sept 29, 2015 9:11:12 GMT
There was no silence from me, I was delighted (as I support QPR FC, not the manager) and said so on many occasions that Ramsey seemed like he had got things going and long may it continue.
(I doubt I would highlight a purple patch that happened when our two best players were playing for a move, that would have made them multi millionaires and set them up for life)
Then, the window closed, it went tits up for whatever reason, we have got 2 points from 12 and the people who spent all summer throwing stones at green houses, have disappeared.
This is the same kind of bollocks that went on with Taarabbt. People were more interested in him playing well and doing a trick, than QPR getting 3pts. I have seen fights at away games between QPR fans, who had different opinions on two bob.
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ingham
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Post by ingham on Sept 30, 2015 14:49:50 GMT
The rope a manager gets to hang himself, job-wise, is short.
No matter how high our expectations, how good his early season form, how impressive some of his results are, once a QPR manager hits the usual long, losing run, he's dead in the water.
It isn't our fault, whether we think he's good, inexperienced, poor or anything else. The Club has no mechanism to prolong a manager's life beyond, say, two or three months of poor performances or results.
Once he's over the honeymoon period of six months (or even less) when we're giving him time, and being reasonable, and all the things NO-ONE will be once he hits that wall.
His admirers will dump him just as surely as his detractors will.
I don't think a Manager has to be particularly bad to get the sack either. But Ramsey, like pretty well all his predecessors, is only here because someone else didn't deliver the goods quickly enough.
If we really WERE prepared to give them time, Ramsey wouldn't be here at all. We would still be giving Magilton or John Gregory or Holloway or Warnock time.
I imagine the underlying reason why the Board just chop them when things are going wrong is that the Board has no idea what to do APART from getting rid, because it is easy to understand two things - a side that is winning all the time, and a side that is losing all the time - and very difficult to work out why someone like Ramsey gets really good results now and then, and really poor ones at other times.
If he is a good coach who would put us in the top 8 if the English game on a regular basis, given seven years, tough. He won't get seven months, let alone seven years.
My conclusion is that what we think is going on bears no relation to reality. I doubt that the players who come here think they will make QPR a better Club. Why would they bother? If they're better players, they'll go to a Club that is ALREADY better. And preferably one that is much bigger, because they're usually there or thereabouts for longer, and over much more extended periods of time.
The way that Managers and Players - and Agents and Chairmen too - AVOID making simply RANDOM decisions about whether QPR or Reading or Brentford or Wolves or Hull or Ipswich or Burnley or Leeds or Barnsley or Derby or Forest or any one of dozens and scores of other Clubs will 'come good' long term is not to bother with anything so unlikely and incalculable at all.
And just stick to a much simpler logic. If you're good enough, go to a better club. If you're not, come to QPR. Just because they tell us that they can do it, we can trust them, they believe this and they're committed to that - well, what else are they going to say? They can't say anything negative, so they can't tell us the truth, unless all our managers and chairmen have been top class since 1987.
If they seem sometimes not to try, or not to know what they're doing, why would they? We might get LUCKY sometimes, but not to the extent that we're likely to get a quality unknown Manager who is any more patient than WE are. If he is good, like our good players, he'll want OUT at the earliest opportunity.
Just as we want them out when they don't deliver pretty soon. It isn't that we know that Ramsey won't succeed if given enough time. We have no idea WHO is the right man under those conditions, so the Club takes the easy way out, and gets another 8 or 12 months respite by sacking the known 'loser', and appointing another guy who we'll tell ourselves WILL deliver if only we are patient.
And the fact is there is no risk attached. We don't have 35,000 floating supporters who only come along when we're in the Champions League. Our support stays solid - at our level - however bad we are (remember record ticket sales when we were relegated to the Third tier?).
If he does brilliantly, he will get a reprieve until the next significant failure. Then it will be easier to get a guy who isn't YET a proven loser than to stick with a guy who KEEPS ON failing.
It isn't just the critics who are quickest off the mark who are impatient. I've seen no evidence that ANYONE is prepared to wait long enough to let a failing manager learn enough to start getting it right.
Each manager steps into a 'dead' man's shoes. He gets his job because someone else left, or was sacked. Someone will get his for the same reason.
And it goes on and on because the number of Clubs who have the nous, talent, organisation, structure, experience and dedication to do otherwise is very small indeed.
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bowles
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Post by bowles on Sept 30, 2015 19:08:50 GMT
Im wobbling big time, the henry starting every game is starting to grind me down!
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Post by harr on Sept 30, 2015 19:32:41 GMT
Im wobbling big time, the henry starting every game is starting to grind me down! I thought Henry was poor against Forest and been poor ever since Bowles. Saying that Theres quite a few that havnt been at there best recently. Any ideas why ? Poll on West London Sport at about 60 % for Ramsey to go. Would imagine that poll has some possible accuracy behind it, think thats probably about right. That 60% is quite a few thousand R 's . The team cant afford to start off Slow again which is the recent pattern even at home.
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Post by sharky on Sept 30, 2015 23:00:19 GMT
The rope a manager gets to hang himself, job-wise, is short. No matter how high our expectations, how good his early season form, how impressive some of his results are, once a QPR manager hits the usual long, losing run, he's dead in the water. It isn't our fault, whether we think he's good, inexperienced, poor or anything else. The Club has no mechanism to prolong a manager's life beyond, say, two or three months of poor performances or results. Once he's over the honeymoon period of six months (or even less) when we're giving him time, and being reasonable, and all the things NO-ONE will be once he hits that wall. His admirers will dump him just as surely as his detractors will. I don't think a Manager has to be particularly bad to get the sack either. But Ramsey, like pretty well all his predecessors, is only here because someone else didn't deliver the goods quickly enough. If we really WERE prepared to give them time, Ramsey wouldn't be here at all. We would still be giving Magilton or John Gregory or Holloway or Warnock time. I imagine the underlying reason why the Board just chop them when things are going wrong is that the Board has no idea what to do APART from getting rid, because it is easy to understand two things - a side that is winning all the time, and a side that is losing all the time - and very difficult to work out why someone like Ramsey gets really good results now and then, and really poor ones at other times. If he is a good coach who would put us in the top 8 if the English game on a regular basis, given seven years, tough. He won't get seven months, let alone seven years. My conclusion is that what we think is going on bears no relation to reality. I doubt that the players who come here think they will make QPR a better Club. Why would they bother? If they're better players, they'll go to a Club that is ALREADY better. And preferably one that is much bigger, because they're usually there or thereabouts for longer, and over much more extended periods of time. The way that Managers and Players - and Agents and Chairmen too - AVOID making simply RANDOM decisions about whether QPR or Reading or Brentford or Wolves or Hull or Ipswich or Burnley or Leeds or Barnsley or Derby or Forest or any one of dozens and scores of other Clubs will 'come good' long term is not to bother with anything so unlikely and incalculable at all. And just stick to a much simpler logic. If you're good enough, go to a better club. If you're not, come to QPR. Just because they tell us that they can do it, we can trust them, they believe this and they're committed to that - well, what else are they going to say? They can't say anything negative, so they can't tell us the truth, unless all our managers and chairmen have been top class since 1987. If they seem sometimes not to try, or not to know what they're doing, why would they? We might get LUCKY sometimes, but not to the extent that we're likely to get a quality unknown Manager who is any more patient than WE are. If he is good, like our good players, he'll want OUT at the earliest opportunity. Just as we want them out when they don't deliver pretty soon. It isn't that we know that Ramsey won't succeed if given enough time. We have no idea WHO is the right man under those conditions, so the Club takes the easy way out, and gets another 8 or 12 months respite by sacking the known 'loser', and appointing another guy who we'll tell ourselves WILL deliver if only we are patient. And the fact is there is no risk attached. We don't have 35,000 floating supporters who only come along when we're in the Champions League. Our support stays solid - at our level - however bad we are (remember record ticket sales when we were relegated to the Third tier?). If he does brilliantly, he will get a reprieve until the next significant failure. Then it will be easier to get a guy who isn't YET a proven loser than to stick with a guy who KEEPS ON failing. It isn't just the critics who are quickest off the mark who are impatient. I've seen no evidence that ANYONE is prepared to wait long enough to let a failing manager learn enough to start getting it right. Each manager steps into a 'dead' man's shoes. He gets his job because someone else left, or was sacked. Someone will get his for the same reason. And it goes on and on because the number of Clubs who have the nous, talent, organisation, structure, experience and dedication to do otherwise is very small indeed. Well said ingham. A good proportion of fans are so used to instant gratification that we have got ourselves into the revolving door. We'll never get anywhere in the long run until we stick with someone for a couple of seasons. I'm not saying that someone should be Ramsey but we need to stick with someone for at least two seasons through thick and thin. If not IMO we'll forever be stuck where we are in the revolving door!
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Post by steptoesson on Sept 30, 2015 23:42:00 GMT
I thought I would never look forward to England v Estonia, but I am actually looking forward to the international break. It is a week where Austin being out will not affect us, and for me that is what is going to keep or lose Ramsey his job, Austin scoring for us just keeping our head above water, the board are ok with that, as it is transition in their eyes, but Austin out injured no goals Ramsey will be waiting for that call.
Sharky I have the name of a manager we should get and stick with through thick and thin for a few years, his name is Pearson.
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ingham
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Post by ingham on Oct 1, 2015 12:17:32 GMT
I'm wondering if the only way we'd stick to a manager - Ramsey, Pearson, whoever - would be to shake off our fear of getting to grips with the dark side.
As long as we treat each new manager, and the Club itself, as if they are machines designed and made to work properly, and which need only a few tweaks to put right, we'll go on looking for that easy fix.
We take it for granted that success is there for the taking, and when we find that it isn't, it comes as a nasty surprise. If we took it for granted that it is far more likely that we and the manager will fail, so that we were pleasantly surprised if things turned out otherwise, we could concentrate on what we do best, losing and failing. And try to find out WHY we find it so easy to get things wrong.
If we don't tackle that problem, we'll never move on to anything more constructive.
We expect every manager who comes here to be a magician, without any evidence that he has a magic wand (he wouldn't be here if he did). And, more to the point, perhaps, without any evidence that the Club has one it can provide him with.
To date, we have been prejudiced against learning from our mistakes. We don't need to if we spend REALLY big, appoint a top class manager, and sign REAL talent. Or if we know how to find that elusive undiscovered talent we can't afford to buy ready-made. But there is no sign that we have any special talent in that direction, so we don't know what an undiscovered gem looks like. Not without the experience, know-how and talent to identify such gems.
Which leaves us with where we are. Reality.
Is there any alternative but to work with what we've got in abundance. Mistakes, weaknesses, in short, every kind of failing and flaw. If we can't make the team more good, perhaps we can start closer to where we are, and concentrate our efforts on making it less bad. Learning why things tend to fall apart won't do us any harm, even if we find we're cleverer than we thought.
Giving a Manager a few years is a good idea in principle, but we'd need more than just hoping for a better future to fend off demands for instant change for the better.
But even if we can't outlaw over-optimism and excessive demands, we might be a bit more honest. And find out why so often SAY that things are getting better, when it is so often the case that they are not.
If Henry is a liability, let's say so. If he's the best we've got, maybe we can admit that. And then we're not asking too much of the guy, and he can feel he's doing his best. Because he might say, for his part, that QPR isn't such a high achieving outfit that it can look down its nose on the weaknesses of its players.
If simply carrying weak players - Henry or whoever, we usually have plenty of them - isn't sexy enough for us, and we know we could do better with someone else, we might ask WHY we think we can get better players than some of our more notoriously weaker signings, when we change the squad regularly without ending up with players who represent a significant improvement on the ones we have.
I remember how unpredictable and weak even our best sides were. How the mid-seventies team rarely played to its 'potential'. And apart from that one golden year of 76, struggled to do much better than just past half-way. And how quickly it fell apart.
Are we just too selective. Supposing that we can just upgrade this or that individual, and get a comparable improvement in the Club's overall competitiveness. Do we take enough account of the endless 'improvements' our rivals are constantly making.
Is that the problem? That if we keep on making changes, even for the better, and our rivals go on doing the same, the results of all the games for Clubs outside the tiny elite at the top are so radically UNPREDICTABLE that calculations of the kind we take for granted will work - this guy is better than the one we've got, that manager is better than the manager we've got - simply can't. Not over time, because the basis for the calculations is different week by week, let alone season by season.
Our fate must be largely determined in the boardrooms and on the training grounds of OTHER Clubs. Over whom we have no influence or control at all.
Very interesting thread.
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Dufster
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Post by Dufster on Oct 1, 2015 13:14:20 GMT
Its his appalling defensive record as manager/coach that worries most!
With no visible past successes of his to reference for comfort along with his continued stumbling performances on match day...I cant see how he has what it takes to move us forward in the right way for the short or long term.
I have always disliked the way LF positions and downplays expectations when it suits, it just smacks of self interest!
They are employed to perform and I see them now trying to hide that performance behind the Building/Transitioning/Consolidating rhetoric!
At what point do we say...OK there is still a chance to get promoted.
Nothing wrong with getting promoted straight back into the Premiership if we have played well enough to earn it!
We are a club with an 18+k capacity and carrying the level of debt you would associate with a Champions league club....£200 million....that needs to be serviced!
So given current squad retention and talent pool....IMO there is an opportunity to bounce back and cash in on another Premiership season to improve our financial situation?
I'm coming to the conclusion that CR doesn't have the experience to make that happen...
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Post by harr on Oct 1, 2015 14:38:47 GMT
Its his appalling defensive record as manager/coach that worries most! With no visible past successes of his to reference for comfort along with his continued stumbling performances on match day...I cant see how he has what it takes to move us forward in the right way for the short or long term. I have always disliked the way LF positions and downplays expectations when it suits, it just smacks of self interest! They are employed to perform and I see them now trying to hide that performance behind the Building/Transitioning/Consolidating rhetoric! At what point do we say...OK there is still a chance to get promoted. Nothing wrong with getting promoted straight back into the Premiership if we have played well enough to earn it! We are a club with an 18+k capacity and carrying the level of debt you would associate with a Champions league club....£200 million....that needs to be serviced! So given current squad retention and talent pool....IMO there is an opportunity to bounce back and cash in on another Premiership season to improve our financial situation? I'm coming to the conclusion that CR doesn't have the experience to make that happen... I looked at the transfers in, out and loans when Redknapp managed in this division and there were many. Redknapp had to totally change his team , loan out many players to get off the books. I looked at all the transfers in our league, yes we have made alot but quite a few in similar numbers and teams just getting on with it. Its a lame excuse by Les, righting off expectation for the season as our Manager struggles. Our team is no worse than the one Warnock or Redknapp Managed, just that in this League they were very good. Both getting 26 points in there first ten games. They also both had there fair share of injuries, loaned in some crap players Maiga,Doyle etc but still achieved there goals. Sorry Les, I dont buy the excuses being made for your buddy.
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kilburnhoop
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Post by kilburnhoop on Oct 1, 2015 15:31:27 GMT
With all due respect and all that, can the anti ramsey brigade sod off to the ramsey must go thread!!!!
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Dufster
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Post by Dufster on Oct 1, 2015 15:40:21 GMT
With all due respect and all that, can the anti ramsey brigade sod off to the ramsey must go thread!!!! Telling people to sod off is hardly a sign of respect Kilburn!
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paulmason
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Post by paulmason on Oct 1, 2015 18:18:59 GMT
With all due respect and all that, can the anti ramsey brigade sod off to the ramsey must go thread!!!! No
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