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Post by londonranger on Jul 20, 2020 14:00:08 GMT
Arent Barnsley cooked?
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Jul 20, 2020 14:41:22 GMT
If Barnsley win their last game and Luton and Charlton both either lose or draw, then Barnsley will stay up - even if Wigan and Wednesday aren't docked points.
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Post by Marc on Jul 20, 2020 16:23:55 GMT
Pathetic! At least two Championship clubs are set to face an agonising wait over whether they will drop into League One even if they finish in the relegation zone because of outstanding disciplinary cases regarding Wigan, Sheffield Wednesday and Derby. The fate of several clubs hinges on the outcome of three independent hearings, none of which is expected before the final league matches on Wednesday. Wigan, who are 13th, have appealed against a 12-point deduction for entering administration on the grounds of “force majeure”, which typically relates to exceptional circumstances beyond the control of involved parties. Wigan launched their appeal on 6 July and, under EFL rules, it must be heard within 21 days. They are 10 points clear of the relegation zone and if they beat Fulham and at least one of Charlton and Luton lose, Paul Cook’s side would escape relegation, even if – as expected – the punishment is imposed. Police officer seriously injured during Leeds United title celebrations Read more Wednesday, eight points above the bottom three, were charged with misconduct in November regarding the £60m sale of Hillsborough to the owner, Dejphon Chansiri. The charge relates to “how and when” the stadium was sold to Chansiri, and the inclusion of the profits in the 2017-18 accounts. The club has said EFL executives authorised the sale, that the charges are “unlawful” and that it is ready to “vigorously defend” its position. Derby, 13 points above the relegation zone, were charged by the EFL in January with breaching the financial regulations of the Championship following a review of the sale of Pride Park to the club’s owner, Mel Morris. They too have strenuously denied wrongdoing, and have said they “adhered to the profit and sustainability rules”. The fate of the trio of clubs rests with independent commissions, which will determine the severity of sanctions in the event of any guilty findings. In guidelines presented to clubs by the EFL in September 2018 the template for breaches of spending regulations was a maximum deduction of 21 points – 12 for the breach, plus a further nine if it was an aggravated offence. Other possible penalties include heavy fines. There is an appeals process. In March 2019 Birmingham were docked nine points for a breach of the EFL’s profitability and sustainability rules. The regular season ends on Wednesday but the “transfer of membership”, when the 2019-20 season will be formally concluded by the EFL, will take place after the Championship play-off final on 4 August. The bottom seven teams remain at risk of relegation, including Barnsley. Paul Conway, the Barnsley co-chairman, has made clear the club would consider legal action if they are relegated and the outstanding disciplinary cases are not completed. Last week the Barnsley first-team coach, Adam Murray, bemoaned clubs being kept in the dark. “To be where we are in the season and not know the black and white of the situation is strange, to put it nicely,” he said. Wigan’s administrators have sanctioned the sales of the teenagers Jensen Weir and Alfie Devine to Brighton and Tottenham respectively to help cover wages, having made 75 support staff redundant. Weir, an 18-year-old midfielder who became the club’s youngest-ever player, will reunite with his father, David, who is on Brighton’s coaching staff, while the 15-year-old midfielder Devine was regarded as one of Wigan’s most exciting prospects. The 18-year-old Joe Gelhardt could also depart, with Leeds among his suitors. www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/20/relegated-clubs-could-earn-reprieve-amid-championship-chaos-wigan-sheffield-wednesday-derby
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Jul 21, 2020 9:42:36 GMT
Totally meaningless statement issued last night by EFL regarding sanctions against Wigan and Sheffield Wednesday: "The EFL is committed to announcing any final outcome promptly [joke!] following notification of the decision by the relevant Independent Disciplinary Commission, giving consideration to the issues raised and in accordance with its regulations.
"In the specific case of Wednesday evening’s final round of Championship matches for season 2019/20, relegation will be confirmed for the Clubs in 22nd, 23rd and 24th positions in the Championship table following the conclusion of those matches but will be subject to the resolution of any ongoing proceedings [relegation 'confirmed' - but subject to change once EFL have made their ****ing minds up].
"In the case of Wigan Athletic the 12-point sporting sanction, as a result of the Club entering administration, will apply immediately following the end of the game against Fulham but is subject to appeal [so again, subject to change once EFL have made their ****ing minds up].
"Nevertheless, the primary objective of any Independent Disciplinary Commission is to deal with cases expeditiously* [joke!] and fairly.
"We will be providing no further comment on any ongoing proceedings at this time."
*expeditiously: definition - with speed and efficiency. Just how long do these EFL numbskulls need to deliberate on this!!?? Come the conclusion of the season at 10.00pm on Wednesday evening, only one relegation place will have been decided. Up to seven other clubs won't be able to plan for next season, know what their budgets will be, whether they need to sell players, or possibly afford to buy players in, sack staff - as no-one will know who's being relegated, with Wigan and Wednesday both still potentially subject to points deductions. Absolutely shambolic.
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Post by bowranger on Jul 21, 2020 10:04:53 GMT
Absolutely horrendous - the double-speak you point out on them using the word "confirmed" is just, unbelievable. These cases have been ongoing for months - I don't see where on earth any new information would be coming from, the financials are already out there.
It's like if you bought a car on Tuesday and the seller confirms that it is 100% yours, definitely, as of Tuesday evening. Oh but also, we reserve the right to come round on Friday, smash in your windows and put it in the river. Meaningless.
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Post by rickyqpr on Jul 21, 2020 11:59:11 GMT
www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8542283/Wigan-Sheffield-Wednesday-AVOID-relegation-Championship.html It is the Daily Mail though................ Wigan and Sheffield Wednesday to AVOID relegation from the Championship as a result of financial dealings with points deductions to be imposed next season Clubs both face points deductions as a result of financial dealings The prospect of appealing the decision will affect the relegation battle Barnsley, Luton, Charlton, Birmingham and Boro are still in danger By MATT HUGHES FOR THE DAILY MAIL PUBLISHED: 20:05, 20 July 2020 | UPDATED: 01:05, 21 July 2020 Wigan and Sheffield Wednesday are set to avoid relegation from the Championship as a result of their financial dealings with any points deductions imposed by the EFL's independent panel to be applied next season. The verdicts in both cases are due imminently, but as both clubs would have the right of appeal if found guilty there is little prospect of the punishment affecting the relegation battle that will reach a climax on Wednesday evening, with Barnsley, Luton, Charlton, Birmingham and Middlesbrough all in danger of dropping into League One. Bottom-club Hull appear doomed, but could still survive if the beat Cardiff and other results go their way. Wigan are facing the prospect of being docked 12 points for going into administration, while Wednesday could lose a maximum of 21 points after being accused of an aggravated breach of the EFL's profit and sustainability rules, punishments which if applied immediately would see them plunged into the relegation zone. Both clubs would have the right to appeal against such sanctions however, and given the amount of time required to complete such disciplinary proceedings it is unlikely the process would be completed before the start of next season. While the relegation issues should be finalised on Wednesday the Championship season does not finish until the play-off final on 4 August, with the formal transfer of clubs between the divisions taking place the following week. The EFL have confirmed that the bottom three clubs in the Championship on Wednesday evening will be relegated subject to other on-going disciplinary proceedings, but there is little prospect they will be completed by the mid-August deadline. While several clubs have criticised the EFL over the lack of clarity the confusion has been compounded by the delayed finish to the season caused by Covid-19, without which there would have been no prospect of any point deductions being applied this season. Several clubs still face the threat of relegation to League One with just one game remaining
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Jul 21, 2020 13:05:56 GMT
The BBC go into this in more detail. Re: Wigan - "...as the EFL made clear, this sanction [12pt deduction] is "subject to appeal", which is due to take place on 31 July, and Wigan have appointed leading barrister, David Phillips QC."
So at least one more relegation place will be settled by then - although that would be academic if Wigan win their last match on Wednesday. Full article at: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53484188
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Post by Marc on Jul 22, 2020 20:44:17 GMT
Well it's all very confusing. Sky kept saying that Wigan 12 point deduction would be applied at the end of tonight's game and kept showing the Championship table as such but I haven't seen any post match confirmation.
Well done to Luton though.
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Post by Marc on Jul 22, 2020 20:44:43 GMT
And as I say that.
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Post by harr on Jul 22, 2020 20:48:41 GMT
Gutted about Wigan, was hoping there performances over the last 9 games might have kept them up but fair play to Barnsley and Luton for getting out that mess. Both looked goners when the season stopped, the virus break actually helped them both would you believe it. Charlton and Hull were very poor all season , no grumbles from me to see them drop.
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Jul 22, 2020 22:03:02 GMT
Unbelievable night of bonkers results.
Got to say well done Luton and Barnsley, astonishing run in the last few weeks. Got to say thoroughly deserved.
I have a good friend who's a Charlton fan - thought they'd be safe, but they've gone.
Really feel for Wigan - they probably deserve staying up more than any of the others. Entirely possible the EFL will come down in their favour, but that would be so hard on Barnsley.
The Championship just HAS to be the most entertaining league in the world.
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Post by terryb on Jul 23, 2020 8:52:09 GMT
There is also the chance 57, that Wednesday could incur a deduction to keep Charlton safe.
I can't see it happening & I can't see how Wigan could win their appeal, but at the moment Hull are the only club definitely relegated.
Well done on finding the date for the appeal, I'd not been able to!
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Post by bristolpete on Jul 23, 2020 9:37:28 GMT
There seems to be sets of rules. One for the small clubs like Wigan (and ourselves) and one for bigger clubs such as Derby (Rooney factor) and Sheff Wed.
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Post by rickyqpr on Jul 23, 2020 9:52:59 GMT
Last nights games were total madness but fun to follow - but leave one lingering doubt in my mind. We are currently 13th with Wigan being relegated by their 12 point deduction. It seems (although I may have missed something) that Wigan's appeal against the deduction is to be held on July 31st so until then I would say that Wigan still have hope, Barnsley may be too early to celebrate and any team from us down do not know their final position and we could even end up 14th. I fully expect that the EFL will stick to the 12 point deduction which may lead to more legal argument but if they decided to cancel or reduce it, the table will look different. Surely not the way to end what has already been a weird season all round. Assuming we finish 13th I think that is a pretty good performance under the circumstances and the players coaches and management including those behind the scenes should be congratulated. Sadly I also expect we would have finished higher without the break In the season. Looking back at results and performances - both team and individual - I also estimate that if we had say Smithies in goal all season, and had kept Wells for the second half of the season we would probably be in the play-offs. That is obviously a pointless discussion but I think the point is it just shows the fine margins between success, survival and failure in this league. Looking at the top of the table it was great to see Forest totally bottle it. I wonder how closely the EFL will take a look at their FFP position - they gambled on promotion and blew it. The play-offs may be an anti-climax. Brentford and Fulham have probably played the best football of the top 4 but Brentford's confidence must be shattered after their winning run turned into 2 season ending poor performances and defeats against lowly teams. They will do well to recover. Fulham have struggled through but on their day can beat anyone in the Championship - but they face probably the hardest tie against Cardiff who are looking strong, on a good run even though not being spectacular. I was pleased for Swansea to take the final slot and of the four clubs I would prefer that they actually win the play-offs. However they may have shot their bolt over the last couple of games and especially the effort last night to get into that final place. They may crash after last nights efforts. In other words I have no idea who will come through the play-offs but expect that whoever does will be back down after one season. Now it's time to look at the PL and keep fingers toes and whatever crossed in the hope that Bournemouth can pull it off and send down Villa and Watford. Spot on 75
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Jul 23, 2020 14:07:12 GMT
Yes, Wigan's appeal is at the end of July. But I don't think that the EFL have even passed judgement yet on Sheffield Wednesday or Derby.
Once that's in, then both clubs have the right to appeal. I'm not sure, but I think they may have something like 2 weeks from the date of adjudication.
Then the EFL and/or independent panel will need to convene to consider the appeal(s).
All of this is going to take WEEKS...
So my guess is that only Wigan will be deducted points (or possibly not, pending their appeal) - the others will almost certainly roll over to next season.
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Post by terryb on Jul 23, 2020 14:23:59 GMT
Yes, Wigan's appeal is at the end of July. But I don't think that the EFL have even passed judgement yet on Sheffield Wednesday or Derby. Once that's in, then both clubs have the right to appeal. I'm not sure, but I think they may have something like 2 weeks from the date of adjudication. Then the EFL and/or independent panel will need to convene to consider the appeal(s). All of this is going to take WEEKS... So my guess is that only Wigan will be deducted points (or possibly not, pending their appeal) - the others will almost certainly roll over to next season. The Sheffield Wednesday case has been heard. I think it was finished before the end of June, but neither club nor the EFL has issued it's findings. Perhaps they have kept it quiet awaiting an appeal? As Derby would almost certainly not been deducted enough points to relegate them, I would prefer that to be held over till next season!
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Post by bowranger on Jul 23, 2020 16:46:38 GMT
Yes, Wigan's appeal is at the end of July. But I don't think that the EFL have even passed judgement yet on Sheffield Wednesday or Derby. Once that's in, then both clubs have the right to appeal. I'm not sure, but I think they may have something like 2 weeks from the date of adjudication. Then the EFL and/or independent panel will need to convene to consider the appeal(s). All of this is going to take WEEKS... So my guess is that only Wigan will be deducted points (or possibly not, pending their appeal) - the others will almost certainly roll over to next season. The Sheffield Wednesday case has been heard. I think it was finished before the end of June, but neither club nor the EFL has issued it's findings. Perhaps they have kept it quiet awaiting an appeal? As Derby would almost certainly not been deducted enough points to relegate them, I would prefer that to be held over till next season! I think the first part is what annoys me so much about the 'process'. For Wigan, sure, that happened well after lockdown (which is why their 'force majeure' defence seems so patchy). But like you say, the Sheff Wed potential breach happened ages ago and has been looked into. Ditto Derby. These issues have rumbled on for absolutely ages now, I don't see what excuse the EFL could possibly have.
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Post by terryb on Jul 23, 2020 17:06:03 GMT
Nor me bow.
They should have been held prior to lockdown& & any appeals could then have been heard in June/early July at the latest.
I think they must fear the clubs dragging it out for a few years by taking it to court as we threatened to do.
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Post by harr on Jul 23, 2020 17:33:34 GMT
What a funny old Division
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Jul 23, 2020 17:52:54 GMT
What a funny old Division Astonishing, hilarious, cruel and totally nuts in equal measure
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Jul 24, 2020 10:39:17 GMT
Some more bonkers facts about the end* of the Championship relegation battle. Sorry to go on, but it's just been so amazing...
1 In early July, these were the bottom five: Luton, Barnsley, Stoke, Huddersfield and Middlesbrough. None of them were relegated.
2 With a minute left against Derby County on 4 July, Forest led 1-0 against 10 men to give themselves a 10-point cushion with five games remaining; they conceded and equaliser, dropping 2 points.
3 With a minute left against Barnsley on 19 July, Forest had the point they needed to secure a play-off place; they conceded, losing the game.
4 With 17 minutes left on the final evening of the season, Forest had the single point they needed PLUS a five-goal advantage over Swansea; they conceded THREE times while Swansea scored twice.
5 Forest was in the top six for 263 days, as long as a normal season, but finished seventh, and out of the play-offs, on the final day.
Some of the Derby 'banter' aimed at Forest is hilarious. One Forest retort back to a Derby fan: "At least it's better than crying at Wembley in the Final..."
*Subject to final adjudication on penalties and appeals, please check back in season 2021-22. Your ground may be it risk if you do not keep up repayments. FFP authorised and regulated by the EFL. The value of brown envelopes can fall as well as rise, and you could get back less than you invested.
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Post by bowranger on Jul 24, 2020 10:40:21 GMT
Amazing fact and makes me more certain that the break in the season had more of an impact than people realise. Barnsley came back like a different team while Charlton were actually a different team having lost key players who would not extend their contracts or play for a month but who would have been playing there for a full normal season end. I wonder how some of those players feel now, knowing that their refusal to play a handful of games for the clubs that had been paying them for the whole season, has helped cost their former clubs relegation or missed promotion. I would also be interested to hear from someone like Grant Hall on what he gained by not extending his contract for a month and seeing out the season with the club that gave him a chance and supported him through thick and thin during his long injury problems. As far as I can see all that he achieved was a month unemployed - maybe on unemployment benefit - and 6 weeks with his feet up, watching football on TV. Certainly there has not been a rush of clubs to sign him as a free agent so maybe he would have been better off in the show window playing out the season. Lots of nice words from Hall when he left but what price loyalty and how do potential bidders for his signature regard his show (or lack of) loyalty to QPR. Don't completely disagree but there is an awful lot of unknowns there. Like you said on another thread, the landscape for players looking at moves and options is very different with current situation in the world and it depends on the player and how in demand (or not) they are. On Hall, I agree that he may have made an error there though we don't actually know what interest or not there is for him or what he's been up to. So much of that is behind closed doors. I don't know how much we offered him to renew or how likely he is to get more cash elsewhere, that's on him. His immediate counter would probably be Rangel - he chose to play and is now out for 9 months at a pivotal point in his career. For every person who sees playing the extension as the right thing to do (I'd count myself in thinking that), there's another player who'd argue that injuries are part of football and if you get hurt through no fault of your own, the club helping you and continuing to pay you isn't a loyalty issue but one of basic employer obligation. And of course for every club who stands by their injured player, there is another who immediately looks to bomb them out and get them off the books. For a lot of players, it's a short career and they're out purely for themselves. I don't like it personally, but I get it - I can't see that particularly being a stumbling block for another club to take him on...though his wages demands may well be. In the Charlton example, it goes to show how much personality is a factor. Lyle Taylor is an easier one to assess as his personality is out there - you only have to go back through his Twitter to know that he is a self-centred, money-orientated player. And for his sake, he'll probably be fine as his goal record in a poor team will be good enough for him to be snapped up by another team, regardless of how he's seen as a human being. In his mind, why jeopardise all that potential money by potentially getting injured? (Edit: also think that ownership/how the club is ran can engender loyalty or selfishness. Look at Charlton and Hull, both appalling ran clubs behind the scenes and just how many players didn't bother extending for the run-in). I think he is fundamentally in the wrong while getting the cold logic of it. I suppose the nature of modern football is almost as much to blame for these players behaving this way as their own personality. As an aside, that makes us playing BOS against West Brom look even weirder, much as I enjoyed getting to see him - one knock or twisted ankle and thats potentially a few million quid down the drain for us. So yeah, I don't like it and I agree with your sentiment. But there's an awful lot going on there that we just do not know about.
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Post by Marc on Jul 24, 2020 10:51:47 GMT
Forest was in the top six for 263 days, as long as a normal season, but finished seventh, and out of the play-offs, on the final day. Some of the Derby 'banter' aimed at Forest is hilarious. One Forest retort back to a Derby fan: "At least it's better than crying at Wembley in the Final..." This reminds me of Huddersfield from a few years back. Were in the top 6 for the entirety of the season except for when they lost game 46 and finished 7th. As the saying goes, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. It's the best last day ever in the Championship but, if the EFL do anything but confirm Wigan's points deduction, it'll have been ruined.
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Post by bowranger on Jul 24, 2020 11:02:04 GMT
Not to sound bitter (oh, alright then) but anyone else getting a bit annoyed with a bunch of journalists and outlets who barely so much as glance at the Championship now absolutely falling over themselves about the last week of the season and all the assertions about the "best league in the world"? It's been an incredible end to the season - there's been cruelty, joy, incredible swings - I enjoyed all that on Wednesday night. But a lot of the assessments of it are absolutely paper thin.
Some of this is admittedly QPR-bias but genuinely, some of it is stunning. I listened to the Guardian's football podcast about it yesterday and they dedicated a good chunk on the West Brom game. They didn't even mention us by name. Absolutely no mention of the dynamic between us, Fulham and Brentford. Closest we got is Marcus Bean being sad about Brentford and how we hadn't helped them for "obvious reasons". Not a word on Eze's worldie. Not a word on us holding one of the best teams in the divison with a team worth a week of Jake Livermore's wages. In The Athletic, there is zero mention of Eze's goal - one of the journos even referred to us as Queens Park ffs. By all means, I enjoy the coverage when we get it but I can't bare all these supposedly expert takes who clearly never watch Championship football.
None of this really matters or is new, it just irks me. One week from the playoffs, all these people who give the league about 2% of their overall attention come calling to crow about the wonders of the Championship. Do they not realise for every bumper end of season Wednesday night special, there's absolutely months of drek and freezing half to death to see your team have a goaless draw away at Reading?
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Post by rickyqpr on Jul 25, 2020 12:34:53 GMT
Not to sound bitter (oh, alright then) but anyone else getting a bit annoyed with a bunch of journalists and outlets who barely so much as glance at the Championship now absolutely falling over themselves about the last week of the season and all the assertions about the "best league in the world"? It's been an incredible end to the season - there's been cruelty, joy, incredible swings - I enjoyed all that on Wednesday night. But a lot of the assessments of it are absolutely paper thin. Some of this is admittedly QPR-bias but genuinely, some of it is stunning. I listened to the Guardian's football podcast about it yesterday and they dedicated a good chunk on the West Brom game. They didn't even mention us by name. Absolutely no mention of the dynamic between us, Fulham and Brentford. Closest we got is Marcus Bean being sad about Brentford and how we hadn't helped them for "obvious reasons". Not a word on Eze's worldie. Not a word on us holding one of the best teams in the divison with a team worth a week of Jake Livermore's wages. In The Athletic, there is zero mention of Eze's goal - one of the journos even referred to us as Queens Park ffs. By all means, I enjoy the coverage when we get it but I can't bare all these supposedly expert takes who clearly never watch Championship football. None of this really matters or is new, it just irks me. One week from the playoffs, all these people who give the league about 2% of their overall attention come calling to crow about the wonders of the Championship. Do they not realise for every bumper end of season Wednesday night special, there's absolutely months of drek and freezing half to death to see your team have a goaless draw away at Reading? To be fair to the BBC and Match of the Day, they have never received any communication to inform them that there are any league below the Prem. They drive up great excitement about relegation, but apparently, once relegated, teams drop into the abyss. Sky fair a little better because Prem teams buy the best players from the EFL adding to the Transfer Deadline Total. But even then, with all their sports channels available, the Saturday highlights can only be found on the obscure Quest Channel. Sadly, I think it is only going to get worse. The only current EFL coverage seems to be about administration and points deductions. So yeah, frustrating.....
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