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Post by superckat on Aug 16, 2011 13:52:51 GMT
He says the right things. Comes across like a man of the fans. But is he going to be what we want or is it just all talk. A few things don't add up which puts some doubts in my head.
No way do I know enough about high finance to know exactly what is going on what games are or aren't being played and what half of the stuff being reported actually means. I rely on others like Mark, Hot Analyst and a few others to come on here to decipher. HOWEVER!!! A man with a fortune of approx �350m and I don't know how much of that is tied up in property or businesses is rumoured to be spending about �80m on a club that has debts and losing money and giving Warnock about �10m - �15m to spend, just doesn't add up.
Is this all Mr Fernandes's money or
- is he just the front man or
- Will he take out a loan under the club's name similar to what the Glaisers did at Man U.
There are also rumours that the Mittals will increase their stake in the club. However no one has heard anything from them but yet the stories keep circulating.
Are we jumping the gun and getting excited too quickly about all this. Remember how excited we got when FB and BE took over or even when GP took over(Not me I must add never trusted him from day 1). Do we have good reason to be excited or should find out more about Mr Fernandes before announcing him our saviour.
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Post by RoryTheRanger on Aug 16, 2011 14:00:08 GMT
I think he will be the front man and yes I do think he will be the real deal. I think most of the money will come from Mittal though.
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Post by Macmoish on Aug 16, 2011 14:31:33 GMT
I answered not sure. I don't believe someone worth around 300 million invests around a quarter of his total wealth in a "product" whose profitability is very unclear. If he borrowed the money, from who did he borrow it? (Perhaps directly or directly the same person selling the "product"?) Has he now got a big loan to pay off, and how he will he pay the interest rate? (Like Glazer put that ig debt on Man U) As I posted in the other thread, he was also just weeks ago interested in "investing" in West Ham AND Norwich qprreport.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=25288It may not have exactly worked out, and they may have been "dissimulating" but at least a decade ago, potential buyers of QPR had to go through a "gauntlet" of QPR1st and other fan, Questioning - Setting out their plans |
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Post by hotanalyst on Aug 16, 2011 15:38:14 GMT
Fernandes is obviously enthusiastic about our club and has good intentions. But does he have the resources to deliver what is required to keep us in the Premier League next season AND improve the finances of the club? Transfer fee budgets, higher player wages, building a new bigger stadium and retiring existing debt all cost a lot of money. I remain sceptical that a guy with a total net worth of £200 million ($330 mill) can achieve what we need, even if it is done in stages. And even with higher PL TV income. It's a tall order. Especially when his wealth is already tied up in four other major businesses. The last thing we need is a new owner coming in and loading the club with more debt! I don't doubt his good intentions but believe that deeper pockets are required in order to grow a football club successfully. So Mittal is the key issue here. Fernandes 51%, Mittal 44%, others 5%...will Amit Bhatia and Ishan Saksena be reappointed to their previous board positions post acquisition? I assume yes. Will Mittal be willing to invest significant sums into the club as a non-majority shareholder? Or only in pro-ration to his shareholding? That's the big question...
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Post by sharky on Aug 16, 2011 15:43:59 GMT
Agree with Mac. It just doesn't add up for me unless he is using Air Asia money through sponsorship and ground naming rights, and maybe borrowing from the Mittals. Tango & Cash want out but need to get out this week or invest tens of millions to stop QPR going down and its worth crashing. Some high stakes big money deals will be made (or not made) this week!!
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Post by londonranger on Aug 16, 2011 15:46:14 GMT
We have no idea.
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Post by Markqpr on Aug 16, 2011 19:21:18 GMT
Safe Ckat. Fernandes eh? Yeah mate, he does raise far more questions than he answers in appearance alone. I think there are no real bases on which to answer them without speculating wildly as everything he has said so far has been pretty vague in detail but full of the usual empty hyperbole that many a football fan has heard from prospective owners. Worryingly he reminds me of some of the things Pallidini came out with when he was trying to buy Port Vale! For me there are three points that can be used to formulate some opinion on him and this prospective deal though: 1. Forget about what he's done and look at what he's actually doing outside of football. He has just increased his flying stock with the acquisition of a second airline and is looking to enter the budget long haul business, concentrating on the Asian market. A premiership team will give his airline and name exposure in that territory for an investment he can possibly recoup rather than spending money on advertising expenditure which he definitely can't. 2. The suggestion that he's cover for Bernie and Flabio is entirely possible though fool me once and all that. Has no-one considered that after Bernie and Flabio refused to sell to Mittal and derided his offer in the world's press, almost insulting his business acumen at the same time, that Fenandes might be a cover for Mittal, allowing Mittal to exercise an option on first refusal of share sales to existing board members before an outside party and bump him up to 45-49%, before eventually assuming full control a year or two down the line at a fair and reasonable price from Fernandes? It's got about as much credence for a theory as anything anyone else has come up with. Think about it!  3. The ground and the debts. What exactly is Fernandes getting for his money? Just the shares and then he has to meet the debts at a later date? Is the ground part of the deal? With the regeneration of White City seemingly onto the next stage, after the completion of the shopping center and a recent housing study showing that housing near to a football ground has generally increased in value above 130% in recent years (some above 300% near Man City!) the value of the ground must be far greater than the distant £25m valuation. This is too important a factor to know nothing about as it has such a bearing on our future financially, so until we know what Fernades is actually buying, it's almost impossible to work out his intentions or those of our current owners in terms of what they are expecting to get out of QPR. Sorry not to really answer your question and only raise more but I, like you, am just a mushroom and have been for some time now. One day I hope to be a Dominos pizza topping. How about you? Oh, we've got plenty of ideas London, the message board is full of them, some of them frankly downright hilarious. It's facts we don't have! |
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Post by bowles on Aug 16, 2011 20:03:02 GMT
I put unsure because we have had to many false dawns at rangers and im to long in the tooth to be seduced with flim-flam! i hope its true i really do but as other posters have stated somethings just dont add up! im gonna adopt a wait and see policy!
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Post by superckat on Aug 16, 2011 23:26:32 GMT
Safe Ckat. Fernandes eh? Yeah mate, he does raise far more questions than he answers in appearance alone. I think there are no real bases on which to answer them without speculating wildly as everything he has said so far has been pretty vague in detail but full of the usual empty hyperbole that many a football fan has heard from prospective owners. Worryingly he reminds me of some of the things Pallidini came out with when he was trying to buy Port Vale! For me there are three points that can be used to formulate some opinion on him and this prospective deal though: 1. Forget about what he's done and look at what he's actually doing outside of football. He has just increased his flying stock with the acquisition of a second airline and is looking to enter the budget long haul business, concentrating on the Asian market. A premiership team will give his airline and name exposure in that territory for an investment he can possibly recoup rather than spending money on advertising expenditure which he definitely can't. 2. The suggestion that he's cover for Bernie and Flabio is entirely possible though fool me once and all that. Has no-one considered that after Bernie and Flabio refused to sell to Mittal and derided his offer in the world's press, almost insulting his business acumen at the same time, that Fenandes might be a cover for Mittal, allowing Mittal to exercise an option on first refusal of share sales to existing board members before an outside party and bump him up to 45-49%, before eventually assuming full control a year or two down the line at a fair and reasonable price from Fernandes? It's got about as much credence for a theory as anything anyone else has come up with. Think about it! 3. The ground and the debts. What exactly is Fernandes getting for his money? Just the shares and then he has to meet the debts at a later date? Is the ground part of the deal? With the regeneration of White City seemingly onto the next stage, after the completion of the shopping center and a recent housing study showing that housing near to a football ground has generally increased in value above 130% in recent years (some above 300% near Man City!) the value of the ground must be far greater than the distant £25m valuation. This is too important a factor to know nothing about as it has such a bearing on our future financially, so until we know what Fernades is actually buying, it's almost impossible to work out his intentions or those of our current owners in terms of what they are expecting to get out of QPR. Sorry not to really answer your question and only raise more but I, like you, am just a mushroom and have been for some time now. One day I hope to be a Dominos pizza topping. How about you? Oh, we've got plenty of ideas London, the message board is full of them, some of them frankly downright hilarious. It's facts we don't have! Mark always good to read your views on this kind of stuff. Your point 2 is something that hasn't occured to me but is a very suggestion and definitely worth considering. Also I'm glad I'm not the only person who can see similarities with the stuff Fernandes is saying and the stuff that Paladini said when he wormed his way in. |
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Post by auburnqpr on Aug 17, 2011 3:12:02 GMT
hes has 470 milion
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Post by canadaranger on Aug 17, 2011 6:04:27 GMT
He knows QPR is a football club with a long and proud history, not a restaurant...
And he loves football.
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Post by Lonegunmen on Aug 17, 2011 6:19:06 GMT
I thought we were a resturant that won the League Cup in 1968   |
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Post by Macmoish on May 15, 2012 15:56:16 GMT
Bump!
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Post by RoryTheRanger on May 15, 2012 16:05:19 GMT
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Post by manta on May 15, 2012 16:27:54 GMT
I wouldn't want anyone else running our club.
Tony hangs out with the fans and hugs the players in the dressing room. More importantly he lets the manager get on with the job without interfering and puts up money for transfers.
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Post by Hogan on May 15, 2012 16:51:27 GMT
Still undecided. He went above the manager and started publically talking of possible player targets, offered Barton amongst others to NW, he then gave players the opportunity to go above the manager to him directly if they had concerns. The whole contracts thing without relegation clauses was a F*** up, luckily it doesn't matter now.
Our Tone is certainly enthusiastic and excited at what he thinks he can achieve with QPR and is certainly risking the clubs long term future by throwing money at it. His personal wealth is not big enough to run a football the way he is running ours, i do not know the wealth of his partners or the financial state of the airline they run, but judging by what is going on globally with airlines and high fuel costs, there is very little stability there. He seems well connected in Malaysia but if there is regime change that too could impact his wealth and ultimately affect our club.
Obviously TF and partners are a vast improvement in many ways to the previous two owners with their more approachable style but we must be weary that very vast sums are being spent on players contracts and fees whilst we have no clear explanation who or how this is being funded.
The land for a new training ground and academy funding is by far their best investment to date and for that TF should be applauded. The talk of a new stadium is gone very quiet, i expected them to move quickly to at least acquire the land whilst there is still land in area available and to make sure the ownership of the land and future stadium belongs to the club. If that happens i think all of us will regard our owners in the highest esteem but until that time comes i personally have some reservations. I was one of those demonstrating for the Thompsons to go, the people that ran our club well, we were one of a handful of clubs who made a profit, well we got our wish and in came a genuine QPR fan, with his big ideas, followed by a flotation on the AIM and vast sums spent on players and their contracts and all the rest of it, we all know what the result of that was.
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Post by ingham on May 15, 2012 18:40:15 GMT
Excellent thread, no time to read it just at the minute, but the things he and the others said when he arrived were curious.
Bhatia, that there was no debt (having told us the 'ABC' debt was still in place), and just before Fernandes said there WERE 'debts'. Which he said immediately after saying saying the club had incurred no debt from the takeover - put it together with what Bhatia said and the Club was debt-free, but Fernandes said it wasn't - because it wasn't 'leveraged'.
But leveraging wouldn't put the Club in debt anyway, it would leave Fernandes in debt.
It might all be above board, but it does sound very much like the usual doubletalk. The conjuror getting the punter to look in this direction while he performs a manipulation in this direction.
It is also worth stressing that these people do NOT put their own money into Clubs. City were £1,000 billion in debt. Chelsea were £1,000 billion in DEBT. That money is the CLUBS' money, not the 'investors'.
The Sheikh and RA didn't write the debt off, either, they merely converted it to equity, in what one hopes is a vain attempt to deflect the authorities' clampdown on that kind of nonsense.
Nobody at QPR has ever put their own money into the Club as far as I'm aware. They are pumping money out. That's why the Ground is mortgaged, rather than the rich blokes' houses, and that's why the Club is in debt, rather than the rich blokes being in debt.
Because the losses are the Club's, not the investors.
That is also why 'Mittal' hasn't spent £1,000 billion on QPR, and why the big money is spent at big Clubs, rather than Chesterfield, Shrewsbury, Walsall - or QPR. Because those Clubs don't have the money. Man City's previous ground held both attendance records for the English League (first and second spot) and Stamford Bridge may have had 90,000 or more at the Moscow Dynamo game.
Those are figures for the old days, but both Clubs - like United, Liverpool and Arsenal, were 'big' in potential revenue, and the 'investment' is made in the way a bank lends money - on the basis of what the Club can repay, not what the billionaire is prepared to throw way on overpaid prima ballerinas.
We are not a Club with a long tradition of big attendances over a long period of time, so we should be wary of imagining that the likes of Mittal puts ANY of his own money in.
Those people - if the past is anything to go by, and we've had some of the richest people in English football running this Club over the last 30-40 years, or just hanging around like Mittal - are here to make money for themselves.
That's why they leave as rich as they arrived - at the very worst - while the Club just gets deeper and deeper in debt.
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Post by bigears on May 15, 2012 19:13:49 GMT
As far as I know TF is the public figure of the consortium who he shares his Investment group with and there worth around a Billion plus.
As mentioned before the main reason why he brought QPR i feel is Marketing for his other firms, the Premiership is the most watch sport / programme in Aisa, everyone watches it, it is on all the time and on lots of channels. With QPR being in the premiership,
this gives him a large amount of advertising across many countries,and thosands of tv channels.
Yes it costs and he will loes £10's of millions, but think how much it would cost to adverstise his other products, i think a hell of a lot more.
I expect QPR t cost him and his consortium £10's of millions but save them far more in his other interests marketing / advertising which he will use this to help pay of it. As long as his other investments are making money to pay for it all will be well, but if they hit hard times then i would expect it to slow. But this is were he is trying to also build a QPR brand in Asia as this way he will try and make it self sufficent.
In the short of it, no it wont be his money that pays for it, it will be the other investments until he builds the brand, with the Mittals along for the ride he has them there in case it all goes wrong and he can sell to them and bail out safetly.
The thing is, no chairman are 100% safe or sure, you can did up bad press or rubbish about all of them because to make that kind of money they have had to make enimies along the way (Sir Mr QPR Gregory was a second hand car dealer who wasnt some to mess with when he started believe me ).
All i can do as a fan, is enjoy supporting my club - enjoy the good times and be prud and loud in the bad times
Thats is IMO only (sorry about the english and gramma).
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Post by Hogan on May 15, 2012 19:20:41 GMT
It is completely fine for an owner to use the club as his marketing tool, but the losses should not belong to the club in that case.
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Post by calders on May 15, 2012 19:24:35 GMT
I cant believe that after just 2 days since Prem survival and the announcement of new training ground etc people are questioning him? Unbelievable  |
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Post by Marc on May 15, 2012 19:26:27 GMT
I think that people have spent the entire season slagging people off, they just can't stop!  |
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Post by calders on May 15, 2012 19:31:17 GMT
Your right Fabs.
Unreal
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Post by maudesfishnchips on May 15, 2012 19:35:44 GMT
i dont get on with the bloke who is at the burger kiosk as you walk into ellerslie, but i really like the two ladies at the kiosk nearer r block.
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Post by Macmoish on May 15, 2012 19:36:07 GMT
Well just to emphasize this Thread was just bumped today from when he took over.
I actually have an awful lot of faith in the current regime (except on a certain non-sports issue!) And I think the vast majority of QPR fans do. And I think they've generally thus far proven themsleves. Even though they made mistakes
BUT....But.... I think as a general rule, scepticim and questioning is a very positive thing..even when not in the slightest bit not warranted. And certainly anyone on this board who poses questions (or expresses polite scepticism is entitled to do so)
Our problems in the past came at least in part from not questioning (and in a few instances from pandering and seeking to silence or mock questioners)
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Post by maudesfishnchips on May 15, 2012 19:39:34 GMT
Well just to emphasize this Thread was just bumped today from when he took over. I actually have an awful lot of faith in the current regime (except on a certain non-sports issue!) And I think the vast majority of QPR fans do. And I think they've generally thus far proven themsleves. Even though they made mistakes BUT....But.... I think as a general rule, scepticim and questioning is a very positive thing..even when not in the slightest bit not warranted. And certainly anyone on this board who poses questions (or expresses polite scepticism is entitled to do so) Our problems in the past came at least in part from not questioning (and in a few instances from pandering and seeking to silence or mock questioners) yes, no need to fawn and be grateful, but respect and question. its the only way to progress. we have been here over 130 years, we have every right to ask. |
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Post by klr on May 15, 2012 19:56:53 GMT
His whole act is very convincing, but still think not sure is the best option here.
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Post by luckycharms on May 15, 2012 20:00:40 GMT
Still undecided. He went above the manager and started publically talking of possible player targets, offered Barton amongst others to NWPerhaps. Although media reports would suggest it was Neil Warnock who pushed for Barton and Fernandes who wanted Scott Parker of his beloved West Ham, desperate for a marque signing to open the floodgates, agreed. www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2011/09/11/2661379/qpr-manager-neil-warnock-we-wanted-scott-parker-and-craig www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/110655.html Concerning the finances. Fernandes has a bit more money than his reported wealth. Same with Reuben. It's nothing illegal. They have several measures in place to ensure if anything catastrophic happens to their core businesses, they won't be reduced to begging on the streets of KL. Maybe I'm the one over reading, but ever since day one of his QPR adventure, Fernandes has always been about building infrastructure and from the early days he's gone on about the youth academy, training ground and new stadium. Personally i think these aren't just benchmarks or goals, these are markers in a schedule. Once the new stadium is in place I can see Fernandes being more amenable to selling his shares to the Mittals or whomever. He'll definitely get more money that way. If he intends to sell. So, i see him being around barring any unforeseen circumstances, for the next 5-10 years. Only selling when QPR's stock rises sky high (e.g. winning Cups, the League, the European Championship) or the stadium is in place or both. The thing is, Fernandes will try not to leave QPR FC in a worst position then when he bought it. That would sully his brand and image. |
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Post by Macmoish on May 15, 2012 20:07:21 GMT
And of course, the question would always be if not Fernandes, who... I was a little unhappy with the kind of half hints (that might be too strong) that Mittal might not stick if we went down.
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Post by Lonegunmen on May 15, 2012 21:04:53 GMT
I think he's a lot better deal than those before him so to speak. He's enthusiastic, he's been consistant, he's stayed out of team affairs and let Hughes do his job. He might not have his own resources and the debts might be out against the club, but surely the TV income will be an immense help in getting rid of some of the debts. ittal may well be the major financier here and if so, that's fine by me.
Are the club really debt free or not. A question I'd like answered. not in a derogitory way, but a genuine question. Things behind the scenes appear to have changed quite dramatically since the three stooges left. Even that set up alone has been a god send really. Good scout just signed, proper GM brought in.
We've another season in the Premier and after all the turmoil and ownership change of last season, next season will be our first real one and our test of the clubs and it's owners resolve.
Let's enjoy it. Only one managerial change in a season, almost unheard of in the last 5 years!
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Post by ingham on May 15, 2012 22:58:55 GMT
superckat's was a great opening post.
Generally speaking, if you do question, as Mac says, it is remarkable how little of substance there is in almost anything they say, and there isn't usually much of substance in what supporters think they will do.
What can they do? They know nothing whatsoever about football. With 92 League Clubs, or whatever it is, the odds are 92 to 1 against them being some kind of lone geniuses.
They just don't know anything about football. Sure, they know about making themselves rich, and they'll do more of it while they're around QPR, but all the other Clubs are run by 'businessmen' who know nothing about football, so it confers no advantage on us.
The only advantage they enjoy is that they are here, and we're QPR supporters, so we have a built-in tendency to hope that somehow what doesn't work at any other Club - the successful Clubs are all big Clubs nowadays - will work at QPR.
And we've been doing that for 130 or more years. Even under Gregory, the only one with an iota of talent, he couldn't wait to close us down and tried to do it whenever he thought there was a chance - why? because we're too small, or he wanted to line his pockets with the money released by selling off the Ground, or someone else's.
Even he never made QPR bigger.
So how will they do it? They can't sign top players, because the Club hasn't got the money. The rich guys aren't doing so because they're only moneylenders, not benefactors. Their question is 'how do we get our loans repaid?' and 'how do we make money on the shares?'
We can't have it both ways. They'll make loans on the QPR scale, and the Cities and Chelseas will get loans on the big Clubs scale. They'll get the better players, the medium sized Clubs will get the players at the next level, and we'll have to compete with a relatively enormous number of smaller Clubs for relatively poor players and managers.
Yes, exceptional talent could make a difference, but, along with the other Clubs, we've already thrown away any long term commitment to developing talent - and coping with FAILURE, which is what every Club has most of the time, and most Clubs have all the time - because we want to punch above our weight and borrow huge sums to get a very temporary short-term advantage.
When the losses this entails start to pinch, our rivals borrow more, we slide back, and our rivals pass us as we once passed them. The teams which do find talent almost invariably can't exploit it, either because bigger Clubs snap it up when it's still young, but usually simply because some Club WITHOUT comparable talent simply drains it off with borrowed money.
The brief renaissance boosts the share price, the investors clear off when there's nothing else to be had, and the cycle begins again.
QPR is unique only to us.
To investors, managers and players its just another staging post where they say the same old thing all the others are saying to all the other Clubs. Yes, we love it here - what else are they going to say? - yes we're going places - means nothing - and - phrased so carefully there is no real commitment at all - our 'ambition' is to get into Europe, we 'want' to be big, we are making money 'available'.
True, we are in the Premier League. We will get money there, but so will all the others. And Clubs in the division below will do what we did, some of them, and spend £25 million winning promotion.
The system recycles Premiership Clubs fast, with 3 going down every year, and for a long time, it was a different 3 almost every year, and a different 3 coming up.
The real deal is the Clubs who can look back on years and years of success, profitability, and the development of formidable know-how, experience and skill. But they are almost non-existent now.
How many of our former owners who 'loved' QPR and believed in its future come to matches? Sure, these guys are different, but we said that about all the others too. Before the event, anyway. Before we found out what they were actually like, and not what we merely hoped, we couldn't wait to be rid of them.
The strange thing is that we know the logic of spending really, REALLY big does work. And we've had the people who could do it. On the RA and Sheikh scale, too. No sign of it, though, is there? And still no sign of RA or the Sheikh picking up the bill at those Clubs, either.
If Mittal's money is significant - and to date it looks like he is just a dummy to put in window (oh, look, a really rich bloke) - why does the Club need Fernandes at all?
Because he can afford to spend big money on QPR that Mittal can't?
And when you look at what they say, are they saying anything owners with no money would say? They talk about QPR as if it is a very small Club indeed. But there is no indication that we will be anything else. And this season's team scarcely gave an impression of shrewdness behind the scenes? Where is all that business shrewdness, toughness, and getting what you want when it comes to QPR. We get crap, and we pay way over the odds for it.
Except for the 45,000 capacity ground, of course. All that would guarantee - except attendances the size of Liverpool or Chelsea and how likely is that? I wonder - is that someone will quietly pocket the cash from the sale of LR.
Why? Because they can be sure of the value of a piece of land, even if it falls sharply, and they can't be sure of anything in football. Especially a long shot like QPR.
And things go wrong in football with relentless consistency. Do investors have the tenacity of supporters? Not even remotely.
Here for life, however bad it gets? If it isn't all about them, they're off somewhere else like a shot.
And it isn't just a matter of things 'going wrong' all the time. Football is designed to ensure failure. Most Clubs are intended to fail, that is why there is only ever 1 winner and 91 losers in any competition. But we never here about that in investors' self-promotion.
Somehow, everything will be different. Just because they're here.
Why? Why would it? They can change so little, they understand so little, and they have so little experience - zero - of success in the game, why on earth would the whole vast structure simply bow down to them merely because they say use exactly the same empty phrases all the other losers use?
Then again, we lose interest in them pretty quickly, don't we? Their predecessors were hailed, lionised, people were singing songs about how wonderful they were, then, overnight, nobody could think of a good work to say about them.
Same with their predecessors. And theirs. And theirs.
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