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Post by gladstoneparkranger on Aug 27, 2019 23:20:06 GMT
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Post by harr on Aug 28, 2019 6:46:22 GMT
Thought FFP was supposed to stop this ? A club that size that was paying weekly wages of upto 6 k per week on certain players .
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Post by surreychad on Aug 28, 2019 7:06:17 GMT
Can someone explain what the expulsion means? Are they now starting from the bottom of the conference or are they now going in to liquidation?
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Post by rickyqpr on Aug 28, 2019 7:31:55 GMT
Can someone explain what the expulsion means? Are they now starting from the bottom of the conference or are they now going in to liquidation? 'The club is now free to make an application to the Football Association to re-join a league competition further down the English football pyramid from season 2020/21, but it is unclear what the procedure would be if Bury do not apply to re-join the competition for next year'.
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Post by surreychad on Aug 28, 2019 7:53:49 GMT
Can someone explain what the expulsion means? Are they now starting from the bottom of the conference or are they now going in to liquidation? 'The club is now free to make an application to the Football Association to re-join a league competition further down the English football pyramid from season 2020/21, but it is unclear what the procedure would be if Bury do not apply to re-join the competition for next year'. Thanks Ricky. I guess that player contracts are all now defunct too (if there are even any players left) It really is a sorry state of affairs and I do feel so sorry for the fans and the employees of the club as its them that will be affected most by this.
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Post by Roller on Aug 28, 2019 8:00:29 GMT
Thought FFP was supposed to stop this ? A club that size that was paying weekly wages of upto 6 k per week on certain players . FFP works differently in League 1 and 2 Harr. In League 1 the only stipulation is that the players' wages do not exceed 60% of the club's revenue, so all the time that the then owner, Stewart Day, was prepared to keep topping up the income, they were within the regulations. From the moment that he got fed up doing so and sold the club for £1 the writing was on the wall. The current owner, Steve Dale, is getting a lot of stick, but it was the previous one whose ambition put them into an untenable position.
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Post by terryb on Aug 28, 2019 8:54:59 GMT
Can someone explain what the expulsion means? Are they now starting from the bottom of the conference or are they now going in to liquidation? 'The club is now free to make an application to the Football Association to re-join a league competition further down the English football pyramid from season 2020/21, but it is unclear what the procedure would be if Bury do not apply to re-join the competition for next year'. Ricky, as a follower of non-league football (well, one club at least!) I think I should know the answer to this, but I dont! Somewhere at the back of my mind I seem to recall that if a club goes into administration they will drop two divisions, but if a club is reformed they will start where the FA decides is the right place for them. What I do gather & I'm very surprised by this (according to a non league forum), is that upto last weekend no supporter of either club had considered the possibility of starting a reformed club. *The reformed Aldershot & Wimbledon started at level 9 or 10 (step 5 or 6), but the Leagues Management Committee were not the sole dictators of league placings in those days! My guess is that a reformes Bolton would start in either the National League (Conference) North (step 2) or the Northern Premier League (step 3 or 4). However, I expect a new Bury would be placed at either step 5 or 6 in the North West Couties League. BUT, this is only a guess! * "Level" includes Premier league & EFL while "step" starts at the National League.
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Aug 28, 2019 9:20:46 GMT
Now we wait for Bolton's 2 week deadline... I think that is simply the EFL's own deadline for the club to find new owners. However, the club is in Administration and the Administrators have said that the financial situation is so dire that they may be forced to place Wanderers into liquidation 'within days'. A number of League 1 and 2 clubs are being touted as the next club to go - but Reading is also often mentioned as being a club at risk. Some people apparently 'In The Know' are saying there will be at least one more club in the same situation as Bury and Bolton in the next few weeks. Sh*tty times for all concerned.
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Post by harr on Aug 28, 2019 9:35:20 GMT
Thought FFP was supposed to stop this ? A club that size that was paying weekly wages of upto 6 k per week on certain players . FFP works differently in League 1 and 2 Harr. In League 1 the only stipulation is that the players' wages do not exceed 60% of the club's revenue, so all the time that the then owner, Stewart Day, was prepared to keep topping up the income, they were within the regulations. From the moment that he got fed up doing so and sold the club for £1 the writing was on the wall. The current owner, Steve Dale, is getting a lot of stick, but it was the previous one whose ambition put them into an untenable position. Cheers, I didn’t realise Roller. So was it the previous owner that was paying 6-8 k a week wages that was well beyond their means? I mean, that was a recipe for disaster. Seems to me there are to many sets of rules for each league, meanwhile the Prem can do what they like and it wouldn’t matter a jot until they got relegated which never affects the top 8 teams anyway.
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Post by kenthoop on Aug 28, 2019 9:35:32 GMT
Steve Dale has a record of at least 50 business failures so how on earth was he allowed to take over Bury also with so many financial problems why were they allowed to get promoted ? also Bolton get another stay of execution when the administrators themselves have said there is no money available to pay off the debts accrued so why have they been granted longer to find a solution ?
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Post by londonranger on Aug 28, 2019 9:37:05 GMT
Simon, your explanations so precise and accurate. Really helps to understand the Bury burial.
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Aug 28, 2019 9:50:44 GMT
EFL's 'fit and proper' test is simply not fit for purpose.
Disregarding the previous owner's competence to run a football club, the immediate problem does seem to lie with Steve Dale.
Various accounts have described how he has tried to bump up the price of the club, refused some decent differs along the way (he apparently had several bids of between £2m to £2.5m), delayed in providing financial details and was just an extremely difficult person to try and deal with in terms of openness and clarity regarding the club finances.
He laughed in an interview that he knew nothing about football and it's clear he cares even less about it. I can only guess that he bought the club for a £1 in the hope of 'flipping' it for a tidy profit and/or stripping what assets along the way.
I heard on BBC 5 Live this morning that 43 of the 51 companies Dale has been associated with have been liquidated - I think there's a bit of a clue to the EFL right there...
Dale apparently wanted over £800,000 for his 'hard work' in addition to having £1.5 million of debts paid off.
Sheer effing greed.
He's lost, the club's lost and the town of Bury has lost.
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Post by rickyqpr on Aug 28, 2019 10:03:50 GMT
'The club is now free to make an application to the Football Association to re-join a league competition further down the English football pyramid from season 2020/21, but it is unclear what the procedure would be if Bury do not apply to re-join the competition for next year'. Ricky, as a follower of non-league football (well, one club at least!) I think I should know the answer to this, but I dont! Somewhere at the back of my mind I seem to recall that if a club goes into administration they will drop two divisions, but if a club is reformed they will start where the FA decides is the right place for them. What I do gather & I'm very surprised by this (according to a non league forum), is that upto last weekend no supporter of either club had considered the possibility of starting a reformed club. *The reformed Aldershot & Wimbledon started at level 9 or 10 (step 5 or 6), but the Leagues Management Committee were not the sole dictators of league placings in those days! My guess is that a reformes Bolton would start in either the National League (Conference) North (step 2) or the Northern Premier League (step 3 or 4). However, I expect a new Bury would be placed at either step 5 or 6 in the North West Couties League. BUT, this is only a guess! * "Level" includes Premier league & EFL while "step" starts at the National League. It is very unclear just how 'phoenix' clubs should be treated as it is 27 years since it last happened (Maidstone). The media are running with the following Terry. 'Bury will be invited to rejoin the league pyramid next season, probably at the seventh or eighth tier, ending the club's 125-year EFL tenure. However, this would almost certainly be a new or 'phoenix' Bury, as Dale will have no choice but to liquidate'. Quite what the rationale for the invite and the determined level/tier remains to be seen.
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Post by rickyqpr on Aug 28, 2019 10:11:48 GMT
Rushden & Diamonds were expelled from the Conference in 2011. Phoenix AFC Rushden & Diamonds was allowed to join the United Counties Division One (Level 9/10) Maidstone joined the Kent County League Division 4 (Level 14). They have done re markedly well since of course, especially considering they lost their stadium - now they play on an artificial grass pitch.(takes me back.....). AFC Wimbledon joined the Combined Counties Prem Division (Level 9 / 10).
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Aug 28, 2019 10:30:55 GMT
Just a bit more about the not very fit or proper person, Steve Dale.
Allegedly, his son-in-law's company (RCR Holdings) bought £7million of debt owed by Bury for a mere £20,000, potentially rising to £70,000 - even at the top end, just one hundredth of its value.
RCR Holdings was then seeking from the Bury CVA a quarter of the original £7m debt - £1.75m. For a debt bought for between £20-70,000.
What an utterly contemptuous 'chap' (other four-letter words beginning with 'c' are available).
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Post by terryb on Aug 28, 2019 12:53:05 GMT
Ricky, as a follower of non-league football (well, one club at least!) I think I should know the answer to this, but I dont! Somewhere at the back of my mind I seem to recall that if a club goes into administration they will drop two divisions, but if a club is reformed they will start where the FA decides is the right place for them. What I do gather & I'm very surprised by this (according to a non league forum), is that upto last weekend no supporter of either club had considered the possibility of starting a reformed club. *The reformed Aldershot & Wimbledon started at level 9 or 10 (step 5 or 6), but the Leagues Management Committee were not the sole dictators of league placings in those days! My guess is that a reformes Bolton would start in either the National League (Conference) North (step 2) or the Northern Premier League (step 3 or 4). However, I expect a new Bury would be placed at either step 5 or 6 in the North West Couties League. BUT, this is only a guess! * "Level" includes Premier league & EFL while "step" starts at the National League. It is very unclear just how 'phoenix' clubs should be treated as it is 27 years since it last happened (Maidstone). The media are running with the following Terry. 'Bury will be invited to rejoin the league pyramid next season, probably at the seventh or eighth tier, ending the club's 125-year EFL tenure. However, this would almost certainly be a new or 'phoenix' Bury, as Dale will have no choice but to liquidate'. Quite what the rationale for the invite and the determined level/tier remains to be seen. So, the media are expecting Northern Premier League. That is certainly possible, but I do doubt that it would be in the Premier division & it would upset a lot of non league fans as being too high. Aldershot & Newport certainly started lower down the chain. A very important question is where would they groundshare? A new club could probably not afford to pay the rent for Gigg Lane & the facilities must reach the grading for that league/division. Many will be surprised what is required for step 5 & 6 clubs (Combined Counties League, Essex Senior League etc). Luckily, there are many clubs in the Manchester area that do have that grading. What many will also not know is that the National League is far stricter on clubs finances than the EFL.
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Post by kenthoop on Aug 31, 2019 12:55:26 GMT
good luck to the administrators in sorting out who owns the ground etc as from what I can gather the car park is owned by a few different people as is the ground and some of the owners are based in the Virgin Islands
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Sept 1, 2019 11:20:14 GMT
MP for Bury North James Frith and the Mayor of Manchester - former Shadow Home Secretary John Burnham - will be meeting with the EFL to try and persuade them to allow Bury FC to rejoin the Football League in Division 2 from next season, as if they had been similarly relegated this season.
Hear James Frith on 5 Live this morning and he did sound hopeful, given that the EFL is owned by the Football League 72 clubs (well, 71 now). He's writing to all of the 71 asking for their support.
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Post by Lonegunmen on Sept 4, 2019 6:22:52 GMT
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Post by rickyqpr on Sept 17, 2021 13:27:15 GMT
Oldham's owner taking them the way of Bury - not the best of experiences for Bettache on loan there. Could be the first founder Prem Club to go out of business. www.newsbreak.com/news/2374124683153/ticking-timebomb-oldham-braced-for-more-protests-amid-sorry-decline‘Ticking timebomb’: Oldham braced for more protests amid sorry decline By Ben Fisher The Guardian This week an artist shared a painting of Boundary Park in happier times, packed with fans waving flags . In reality, the picture at Oldham Athletic is not rosy or harmonious and apathy reigns in advance of another planned protest against the owner, Abdallah Lemsagam, who has presided over a malaise that has left them bottom of the Football League. These days, most of the banners carry a similar message. “Enough. Sell The Club” read one on display in defeat at Leyton Orient last Saturday. That 4-0 hammering is a good place to start given Oldham took drastic action to block supporters from buying tickets for that game. The same applied to this Saturday’s home match against Hartlepool, in an attempt to quell discontent – fans halted their last home game after invading the pitch – before a U-turn on Tuesday. Only season-ticket holders had been able to buy tickets, and season tickets were withdrawn from sale, before the club reversed their decision. Oldham said they were “advised to change its ticketing arrangements” after dialogue with local authorities including Greater Manchester police. It is understood police did not advise on specific action. img.particlenews.com/image.php?url=0hg5q9_0bzDkjmD00Oldham supporters halt the game at home to Barrow this month by invading the pitch. Photograph: Ryan Browne/Rex/Shutterstock A timeline of the Abdallah years makes miserable reading. Late payments of salaries, threats of player strikes and threats of administration have punctuated Lemsagam’s reign. One former club employee describes Lemsagam, a Dubai-based former football agent, as “not malicious” but stubborn and badly out of his depth. “He loves a name,” says one source. “He appointed high-profile managers and he likes to think he is popular.” Staff were bemused when Lemsagam brought the former Arsenal forward Júlio Baptista to the stadium in 2018 and, when the club hosted a charity game a month later, the Moroccan promised to delve into his contacts. “We got Paul Scholes playing, some ex-Latics players, Colin Hendry and a couple of ex-internationals,” says another source. “I said to Abdallah: ‘Do you know any players that could come down?’ He said: ‘Leave it with me, on the night you’ll have Maradona.’ The night came and we didn’t have Maradona. He pulled in nobody but Mohamed Lemsagam.” img.particlenews.com/image.php?url=2KG94J_0bzDkjmD00Oldham’s manager Keith Curle with his players during the Carabao Cup tie against Accrington. Photograph: MI News/NurPhoto/Rex/Shutterstock Abdallah has rattled through nine managers in his three and a half years, with Keith Curle the current incumbent, but his brother, Mohamed, the sporting director, has survived every sacking, to the amazement of supporters. Those who have worked with Mohamed say he takes an extremely hands-on approach. Results suggest it is a failing model, with Oldham, relegated three years ago, beaten in six of their opening seven matches. They could become the first founding Premier League members to be relegated out of the Football League. “People think we have hit rock-bottom but we don’t really know where rock-bottom is at the moment, while this owner is here,” says Steve Shipman of Push The Boundary, an independent fans’ action group. “It feels like they are playing Football Manager with a real-life football club.” One former staff member recalls the scene in 2018, amid winding-up petitions and five late salary payments in six months: “Players came knocking on the door every day, in groups asking for news on wages. In the first meeting he had with all staff, one of the coaches put their hand up and said, ‘Can you guarantee we will be paid on time?’ and Abdallah’s answer was, ‘No.’ It was a ticking timebomb and now it is as bad as ever. Protesting, running on to the pitch. I am just surprised it took this long. But he [Abdallah] is a very charming man; says all the right things, does all the wrong things.” img.particlenews.com/image.php?url=2lI1VM_0bzDkjmD00Oldham’s owner Abdallah Lemsagam at the unveiling of Paul Scholes as manager in February 2019. Photograph: Simon Stacpoole/Offside/Getty Images Oldham did not respond to the Guardian’s request for comment. The club are under a transfer embargo and supporters have had enough. On Saturdayfans are due to gather outside the main entrance and plan to walk a coffin down Furtherwood Road. “We want it to be peaceful but passionate,” says Shipman. But Lemsagam said in an open letter this month: “I do not want to sell my ownership of the club. I am more determined than ever to make the club successful.” He also said he accepted he had “made many mistakes since I took over”. If anything defines the absurdity, it is that last season the former club captain David Wheater, released in March, was ordered to train with the youth team while the first team struggled en route to leaking a league-high 81 goals, after rejecting what he claims would have been tantamount to a 70% pay cut after the club placed players on furlough. Wheater, a 6ft 5in defender, says he ended up wearing youth-team shirts that resembled a “boob tube” and shorts like “hot pants”. The former Oldham striker Craig Davies described the environment as “like the wild west” and disputes have not been limited to senior players. Scholes lasted 31 days as manager , and various staff have left, been sacked or suspended. In the same open letter, Lemsagam said “there have been no employment tribunals in the last 12 months”. He added, “Some staff departures were not handled as they should have been.” This month the club advertised for a club secretary, ticket office manager and finance manager. Fans and sponsors have walked away in numbers, vowing not to pay another penny while Lemsagam remains. The Oldham Athletic Supporters’ Foundation, which owns 3% of the club, has created a contingency fund to potentially help save the club. “We need to press the reset button,” says OASF’s director Matt Dean.
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