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Post by bowranger on Oct 2, 2018 9:30:22 GMT
I don't know about the first one if you're just talking about this board. Other than one or two posters, I've not seen anyone call for McClaren's head or have said Warnock should replace him. It's why I post here rather than other places, because it's less toxic and less reactionary.
I've seen frustrated fans discussing the failures and debating the reasons for them. Warnock has been brought up but in relation to Bhatia's previous relationship with him and Cardiff struggling in the Prem and our club's notoriously itchy trigger finger. I find that hard to believe but even Clive over on LFW has said that's a distinct possibility and he's not a doom merchant. I mean, loads of the posts on here I was catching up on this morning are caveated with the idea that they hope the situation improves and fundamentally want us to do well. If it was a matter of "unexpected" results, you wouldn't see such an outpouring - it's that there are fairly clear tactical shortcomings and how incongruous it is to the situation the club laid out. By all means disagree and engage with that, but don't imply like all of that is mindless negative venting or something without arguments to back it up because I don't really see very much of that here. People repeating a negative statement annoys me too but again, it's in the minority on this board.
Don't see how any of that is somehow contradictory to supporting the team, with that jab at the end. I'll be off to Reading tonight to do just that.
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Post by rickyqpr on Oct 2, 2018 10:53:54 GMT
75 - you come over as very angry. You seem to be telling other posters off for having a view that you do not share. This message board is the most 'grown up' of all the MBs and like Bow, the reason I now post here. If you take a look at WEATRB site, then I think you have a valid point IMHO. It can be toxic there even when we are playing well! But if your criticism is aimed at some of my posts, then I would say the following: 1) It is that time of year - that is a fact - International breaks are notorious for managerial changes throughout. 2) I have always argued to keep managers - not sack them. 3) I have supported Fernandes throughout - I believe QPR may have gone out of existence without him. I fully support Amit. We remain very vulnerable and we are lucky to have him. 4) Emojis rarely work for me - must be an age thing. Anger emojis without explanation leave me wondering if he is angry with the result, the performance, the manager, the message boards or even the coach breaking down - hence my comment, 'what is that all about?' - sorry if it offended you. 5) The McClaren thread was started by me. Did you read it through? Genuine question. I was pointing out that other club supporters ridiculed the appointment and are delighting in seeing out plight. I go to all the home games, many of their examples appear to occurring at Loftus Road. Our man failed at Forest, Middlesborough, Newcastle and was branded the Wally with the Brolly when his England role came to a close. Is it unfair of QPR supporters to question if history is about to repeat itself? 6) Following on from 5 above - for me the most worrying issue is that he does not seem to know what he is doing. The 4 matches that saved him had an element of good fortune and although we all got very excited, Millwall came back strongly at us in the second half following 45 minutes whereby we all could see that there is genuine talent in our ranks. Since then we have moved a long way down from that performance and we are all frustrated. 7) Of all the reports that I read about QPR (and as a pensioner I have time to read far too many) the report that I value the most is Clive's on LFW. He is the last person to call for a manager's head - after all he writes in the matchday programme! But he has expressed many of the concerns that have been expressed on this website. 8) As I have said throughout, I want McClaren to succeed, I hope we beat Reading tonight. But at what point 75 will you give up on McClaren? We all have our views on when? Had we lost to Wigan and a couple more, would your patience have expired? 9) Much of the frustration has been expressed by supporters who travel at enormous expense. I really sympathise because as a younger man I have experienced those long journeys home. 10) Finally, I apologise if anything I have written has caused your anger. That would never be my intention. I enjoy the debate with others. I would much rather you participate and explain why you think the view expressed is incorrect, but as you say, if you have 'given up' on the message board then that is sad but understandable.
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Post by blatantfowl on Oct 2, 2018 11:42:20 GMT
I only use this MB, the BBC app and going to games to get my QPR info. It makes being a supporter bearable.
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Post by rickyqpr on Oct 2, 2018 13:26:26 GMT
Ricky I am angry but frustrated - not with posters on this board with the exception of one who pops up with the "taxi" comment if we let a goal in and what I consider a side swipe at our latest chairman and twitter. The reason I am fed up is that we are going around in an annual cycle of get a new manager after 10 games start calling for his head etc etc. I am 100% certain that people like you and Bow who contribute some very valuable and thoughtful input to this board are among the best of supporters and hope you both enjoy the game tonight. My post really was just venting my frustration with the club, manager, players and some so called fans without getting into the detail that we all know. I'm sorry if it has come across as directed at you and Bow and other regulars on here. I too am a pensioner and read a lot and there is an undercurrent of discontent in what I read. So as I tell other people if you do not like what is on TV switch it off so I have just stopped reading much of what is out there. The club is struggling in many ways and that is hard enough for me to take after more than 60 years supporting the R's without reading more and more about it. Fair enough 75
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Post by rickyqpr on Oct 2, 2018 14:55:00 GMT
The other bit I forgot to moan about is the Pink away kit. On the one hand it does not look bad but it is just not QPR and we should never have gone for it. I said at the start of the season that with kits of the teams in the Championship we will be playing in Pink for more than half our away games. Call it superstition or just nonsense but I just cannot see us doing well away in that kit - just like the relegation season a few years ago when we wore those numerous thin blue hoops. Just did not feel right. I think the club missed a real community trick with the pink kit. A two tone hooped green kit with a £3 contribution or premium (minimum) going towards the Grenfell funds would have been a great move IMHO. Many occasional purchasers would have been happy to buy and contribute. I know I would. The pink kit was 'brave' but I think very much a Marmite outcome. It is also a shirt that is unlikely to be seen in the crowd after this year.
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Post by sharky on Oct 3, 2018 1:16:05 GMT
Won away again in Pink overnight. Maybe it's not so bad for us afterall
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Post by bowranger on Oct 3, 2018 16:44:05 GMT
Have to admit, I'm ambivalent about the pink kit but do weirdly enjoy just how much some people seem to really, really hate it. I don't see the big deal. Meanwhile, it's apparently the best selling away kit we've had in years.
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Post by terryb on Oct 4, 2018 9:31:41 GMT
It is that time of year again!
Prior to Tuesday night there was a great deal of unrest on message boards & many were wanting ANOTHER change of manager. On LFW these were led by 2T2B, a poster who has demanded the head of every manager from the day they were appointed. Apart from Holloway that is, who could do no wrong & should have been in situ until death! No doubt, our next defeat will immediately lead to another round of this tripe!
Comparing points this season to last year, we are the same, 13 points from 11 games, though losing six matches tends to make it feel we are worse off. Is the football any better? I don't think so, but It probably isn't any worse either!
I will admit to having some reservations with McClaren that I didn't have when he was appointed, but the thought of changing the man in charge again does not sit well with me. My reservations are that I thought he would be good for our younger players & would hasten their development, but apart from Lumley & Eze, the opposite has happened. He also suffers/has suffered from playing a system to accomodate his stars rather than selecting a team to fit his pattern of play. In his favour, Lynch has played a lot better this season & along with the BFG they looked very commanding at Reading.
As for the ownership of OUR club, apart from the early heady days of the Tune takeover in 2011, I have not been happy with any of them since Bulstrode passed away. However, I don't give a **** if they use social media as long as they realise that not all replies will be favourable! If it wasn't mentioned by Mac or some on LFW, I would never know they have tweeted!
The pink kit is something else I don't care about, apart from that it means we don't need a third kit this season. Hallelujah!
In summary, this season is just the same as nearly all I have suffered since Rangers became MY TEAM!
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Post by bowranger on Oct 4, 2018 11:36:44 GMT
Don't disagree with any of that Terry, succinctly put! Now here's me building on it...in a not succinct way.
The points comparison with last season versus match performance/individual results did get me thinking about why there's been a different level of hostility this time around.
So why are people being all moody and how may this change?
The usual suspects Like you say, some people in our fanbase are always going to call for a sacking around this time of year. I lurk on LFW now and again (used to post for years from the Rivals days) and the 2T2B stuff is almost beyond parody now. Can't tell if that person just willfully trolls or they just can't help themselves. Beyond them though, like most clubs, there are always going to be people who think we're one more managerial change away from success, despite it rarely ever making much difference. I was seeing people saying they were never going again this season...but I think plenty have made similar threats previous seasons. As Clive pointedly said, if we do end up getting some success in the future, I very much look forward to all the people saying how "unfair" it is they can't get a ticket for Wembley having thrown in the towel in September...
Shifting the goal posts On the expectation levels it's like you say - the club pushed a very definitive agenda about what this season meant and what McClaren was here to do and it doesn't feel like he's done it. Young players going backwards and/or being alienated, prioritising loans at the expense of the system etc. So that plays a role. Don't think it should be discounted that in the club's PR push for season ticket renewal and the new kits, our young 'stars' were at the absolute forefront. I was looking back at our kit launch and asides from Freeman and Wzsolek, the main models were Smyth, Manning, Oteh, Osayi-Samuel and Furlong. Can't legislate for Furlong's injury but the messaging was abundantly clear. One of them is on loan and we see next to nothing of the others. That makes an impact on perception.
Consolidation fatigue I think that bleeds into the fatigue of following a side where the medium term doesn't seem to hold anything other than consolidation and incremental improvement. The one thing that mitigated that was the faith in a long term plan - or at least, that was a big factor for me. When we consolidated last season, despite some weird team selections and horrific runs, I still had that sense of us developing and growing for the future to cling on to. Now, with the loan signings (I know these can be justified in a wide variety of ways), McClaren's attitude towards the younger/fringe players and the likelihood of Sir Les heading off to the FA, it all feels further away. And even ignoring all of that, it is all so bloody tiring isn't it? Whether it was McClaren or anyone else in the hot seat, FFP and our finances dictate that, short of a miracle, we are simply treading water and will be for some time. It wears people down, patience gets thinner. Meanwhile, the prices don't get lower and the games still come thick and fast. It all adds up, particularly for older fans who have more responsibilities and more pressure on their time.
McClaren's demeanour So some of the previous stuff is out of McClaren's hands, but the way he carries himself is not. It's almost the polar opposite to Holloway. I think it's a very daft point of view, but look how much people made of McClaren's announcement photo - for some, that was enough to conclude that he didn't really want to be here. Plus, he comes with a hell of a lot of baggage, both good and bad, from being a "big name" manager. To the brolly/wally jokes (zzzz) to the understandable cynicism based on Fernandes being enraptured by someone he knows off the telly. You see it all over the internet - from his weird habit of adjusting his trousers during interviews, to his (quasi-understandable) weird takes on performances in post-match answers, to his huge bench of staff clutching iPads while we make weird substitutions...all of these things seem to grate on people. Doesn't make it logical, but it does piss people off.
The ghost of Ian Holloway No matter who came in after Ian Holloway, they had the odds stacked against them. For all the loud mouths for whom Ollie could do no wrong, there were just as many who felt he could do no right. But in the middle, there's a very large stack of fans who didn't have unswerving faith in Ollie, but did feel uncomfortable about the manner in which he was sacked after fulfilling his stated remit and job description - bring through youth, consolidate league status and dramatically slash the wage bill. He achieved all of those things so any new manager wasn't stepping in to rescue us...they were supposed to be building upon this platform and doing better, to justify Ollie's sacrifice. I'd count myself in that category, so McClaren had a lot to prove to me before he even stepped through the door. Ollie also had the mitigation of very clearly loving the club and memories in the bank with our fans - some would repeatedly forgive his weird outbursts because it demonstrated "passion". It's been acknowledged by Ian Taylor (when defending himself against Fernandes' pointedly wrong assertion that Taylor 'picked' Ollie...) that Holloway was at least partly chosen as a positive PR move. Last year was going to be tough, fans felt alienated, so bring in someone with a lot of credit with the fanbase, someone who is desperate to be here, someone who buys the club some time and goodwill. By comparison, McClaren comes across as dispassionate and a lot of fans don't seem to like that. As others have pointed out (particularly Neil D in a LFW preview prior to the Reading game who articulated this very well), there's an impression that McClaren hasn't quite done his homework. That he doesn't see the things in the squad that we do, that he doesn't quite get QPR yet.
Burning the hardcore So consolidation under any manager takes it out of you over time, but McClaren's big misstep with Blackpool, Norwich and Swansea in particular is that it actually alienated part of the core fans who follow us up and down the country. I think of them as the canary in the coal mine because I think their opinions carry a lot of weight both on and offline. If you've got people who always try and look on the bright side, who are knowledgeable, who are the least reactionary and even they are absolutely livid...that's not good. It changes peoples' opinions. LFW is a good example - seeing posters who would always give the benefit of the doubt coming to the end of their tether after those games. I was at Holloway (no pun intended) Road tube station last night and saw a poster for upcoming Arsenal fixtures...featuring Blackpool. Even that annoyed me.
Right system, right players I think this is the biggest factor. With loanees coming in and our very up and down performances, we actually have a pretty general agreement on how QPR's first team play their best football. One striker, Eze in the number 10 slot. Holloway eventually stumbled on a system that worked, but if you asked 10 QPR fans last season what our best starting 11 and shape was, you'd have got 10 different answers. That's not the case this year - which is why, after a very good 45+ minutes against Millwall, all that goodwill was chucked in the bin in the following three games with a change of system. It's been a long time since we've seen such a definitive break on that front. People may quibble about Cameron for Scowen or Cousins for someone else but you don't see anyone backing a 4-4-2 with Eze and Freeman out wide. The follow on from this is that the equal points comparison with last season doesn't really tell the full story in terms of fan perception. Dispassionately, it doesn't look too bad, but it doesn't factor in just how poor the losses were and how preventable they appeared to be (at least, following the loans coming in). Last season, we were inconsistent but more often than not, mediocre. This season, we've had a good proportion of games where we've looked absolutely bereft. The positive to this is that after the edgy but decent performance against Reading, maybe this has finally hit home? This isn't a team that is incapable of playing well - we've shown we can when we're set up to play to our strengths. And if we continue to do so, there's reason for optimism.
To stress, I'm not saying all of these factors are "fair" or considered or even logical - I certainly don't feel passionately about all of those factors. Just based on the opinions heard at matches, from friends and from looking across the various messageboards to see why people feel the way they do.
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Post by rickyqpr on Oct 4, 2018 12:34:05 GMT
Pretty comprehensive Bow...........wow! The only additional point I would make (how can that be possible?) is that I often wonder the age of some of the posters. I think the average on this board is much 'more mature'. This was evidenced in the 'What was your first QPR game' thread recently. The web is a great leveller. It means that a post by a child or young teen can develop into a debate with a pensioner without either realising. On LFW, Clive is forever pointing out the harsh realities of QPR's current business plight, and yet still there are countless posts about why don't we buy that £5m player or why doesn't Fernandes spend more money. Still many do not understand the FFP constraints or even the cost of sacking managers. I find the stick that Ferdinand gets to be hurtful and unrealistic in expectation. I sometimes wonder what is really behind it. But with managers, many generations have grown up with 'I don't like what I am seeing so sack the manager'. In fact, 'we have lost 2 games, sack the manager'. it is perceived to be the correct reaction to any problem and in stark contrast to how hard it is to replace people in 'the real world'. Where I do have sympathy though is when the fanbase is pretty united in a view and the manager sticks rigidly to what he believes in. That can then be pretty binary. McClaren is now saying he is going to rotate the striker role between Wells & Hamed. He is the last one to work that out but seems to think now that it is inspired. He has not even tried it in the games that went so poorly. Experiment by all means, it is early enough in the season, but correct it when it fails. That is the point when the hardcore start to turn on the manager and why this time it turned pretty quickly against McClaren- as you explained. But good stuff Bow - send it to Kickup the Rs.
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Post by londonranger on Oct 4, 2018 13:59:34 GMT
Loverly stuff mates, and very comprehensive. I have learned over the decades to be satisfied with what I get.If we get a result, Im "in the pink" Sorry to mix metaphors.But must admit that 6-0 home loss to Newcastle still will upset me if someone mentions it, family and friends. The 7-1 drubbing to WBA, Ive recovered nicely from it.
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Oct 4, 2018 16:17:31 GMT
Interesting(?) statistic/comparison between our start this season and last...
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Post by rickyqpr on Oct 4, 2018 18:48:02 GMT
When McClaren was appointed, I was not over impressed, I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, I took on board he did well as our coach and so he had my support. Who knows how we will do on Saturday (and that is part of the problem) but I hope we win and that the current manager succeeds at QPR. He still has my support but I am not sure that he knows what he is doing. I liked Holloway and Warnock, was bored by JFH and really hated Redknapp and Hughes. I did not have any real feelings about McClaren the man, but I now do not like him for all the reasons that Bow articulates. But the options if we are to change manager now are all very unattractive. I cannot think of any available manager that would help us with the long term plan. The Reading victory has eased the pressure and I hope that just as we did last season we can stay clear of trouble. That as well as the cost of change means that we need to succeed with McClaren. My worry remains that we could get dragged back into the scrap and I am not sure that he has the skill set required to lead the team. But I really hope he does. I think there is enough skill in the team to survive this season. At least Ferdinand has said that he has not spoken to anyone about any other job.
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Post by bowranger on Oct 4, 2018 19:18:59 GMT
Loverly stuff mates, and very comprehensive. I have learned over the decades to be satisfied with what I get.If we get a result, Im "in the pink" Sorry to mix metaphors.But must admit that 6-0 home loss to Newcastle still will upset me if someone mentions it, family and friends. The 7-1 drubbing to WBA, Ive recovered nicely from it. Exactly my starting point - fed up with reading negative stuff just be happy with what we have because it could be a whole lot worse.
Just remember QPR 9 Tranmere Rovers 3 (in the smog)
Man Utd 8 QPR 1 (did ok for 80 minutes then caved in)
and of course WBA 2 QPR 3 at Wembley will always shine above a little 7-1 loss this season.
That's football. I'm all for looking on the bright side and with QPR I predominantly do. But I don't think being happy with "what we've got" because historically some results or outcomes have been worse is a good enough reason not to critique. Because that's what the majority of stuff is on here - critique - it's not negative for the sake of being negative. Being pleased with what we've got was more palatable last season because we were pretty much only working with what we had. That's not what this season was about and how it was sold to us, for the reasons laid out above. Football isn't a binary scenario of just comparable results and points. It's about identity, plans, passion, effort, tactics, the manner of both defeats and wins, who's involved and why. In many of our cases, it's about hundreds of quid on tickets and trains, time off work, late nights and long journies home. So it's not the end of the world and it's not about tarring off everyone in sight and refusing to go again and demanding X,Y,Z is sacked. But it is important, it does matter and there's a lot of reasons why lots of us aren't just shrugging our shoulders at it. That's football, too. "That's football" applies when you play well but the opposition ends up having one attempt at goal off someone's arse and they score. Not structural football club issues that can change - again, like the ones laid out above. It could always be worse, we could be Blackpool or Luton or Coventry. But that isn't and shouldn't be the yard stick. It's quite grating implying critique just equates to negativity, as if the issues people bring up are somehow irrelevant.
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Oct 5, 2018 10:48:38 GMT
I think it's a fact of life that football fans are probably NEVER happy for any length of time.
Looking back over the last few years, the Warnock promotion season was fabulous.
The next 2 seasons were generally pretty miserable, interspersed with the odd moment of joy.
Personally, I didn't enjoy the Redknapp promotion season after McClaren left, we were pretty awful - though the play-offs meant there were 4 or 5 months of happiness, hope and anticipation of having learned from our time in the Prem 2 years earlier.
Thing is, if we're bottom of the table, we all hope to be mid-table. But in reaching mid-table we then want to be in the play-offs... and so on.
Just look at 2 of the richest clubs in the world, Man U and Arsenal... fans have done nothing but moan for years (less so with Arsenal this season).
It's as if fans of every club feel their team somehow has the 'right' to be successful. In the Championship, only three teams will be, leaving 21 teams to feel hard done by...
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Post by rickyqpr on Oct 5, 2018 11:53:39 GMT
I think it's a fact of life that football fans are probably NEVER happy for any length of time. Looking back over the last few years, the Warnock promotion season was fabulous. The next 2 seasons were generally pretty miserable, interspersed with the odd moment of joy. Personally, I didn't enjoy the Redknapp promotion season after McClaren left, we were pretty awful - though the play-offs meant there were 4 or 5 months of happiness, hope and anticipation of having learned from our time in the Prem 2 years earlier. Thing is, if we're bottom of the table, we all hope to be mid-table. But in reaching mid-table we then want to be in the play-offs... and so on. Just look at 2 of the richest clubs in the world, Man U and Arsenal... fans have done nothing but moan for years (less so with Arsenal this season). It's as if fans of every club feel their team somehow has the 'right' to be successful. In the Championship, only three teams will be, leaving 21 teams to feel hard done by... Yep, the lot of a football supporter can be an unhappy one. The Arsenal supporters are the ones that amaze me in the unhappiness stakes. But the problem/delight is that we all 'own' our clubs and all are passionate about what we see. We all have opinions - sometimes those opinions even align. The web just provides an outlet for venting rather than sounding off at the game, talking about it on the way back to the car and then forgetting about it for a week. SSN rolling news means that minor stories can be hyped and unhappiness multiplied. But to me, it comes back to the question of what is a football club and why do we support it? The kit changes every year (although base colours usually remain), the manager changes every five minutes, the badge changes, owners come and go, clubs move ground - even from Wimbledon to Milton Keynes, players have little loyalty and yet the loyalty of the fans is intensified. They even unite against all the above changes. So to me, your chosen club is all about community. It is about seeing the same people in the same seats, friends from school, work colleagues, families going back generations all united behind some intangible cause. Get to Wembley and whole families turn out and a new generation of support may be born. I would go as far as to say that I was brainwashed by my dad at a very early age. There could only ever be one club for our family. We were in the Third Division South in those days, so not as if we were any good. Born in Queens Park, schooled in Queens Park and lived there until I got married, it wasn't about the football was it? Even when I was working, people identified me with QPR. They still do, anything happens at QPR (and it always seems to) then I am the one they think to contact. When I left one company I was presented with a framed signed QPR team shirt that Paul Furlong had organised for me. So we all 'own' it and want to improve it, succeed, enjoy it or whatever. But the web has changed things. Some for the better, but not all. There are some real twerps that have licence to vent through the web and Fernandes was guilty of taking notice of too many of them. But I enjoy the debate with others on line and I think I am not a happy clapper or a miserable sod in general, but emotional and dedicated. The other thing is that posters can be drunk (or whatever) and post something that they later regret - but once it is out there it stays out there.
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Post by marshbowles10 on Oct 5, 2018 12:29:38 GMT
This is a really interesting post and possibly contains some of the best and astute observations corralled into one thread. There is no ranting or raving and it is obvious that this thread is written by people that really do care about the football club.
I don't think anyone wants to openly attack either the manager, the players the board or whoever happens to be in the firing line.
Football is a game of opinions, it's why it has taken goal line technology so long to come on stream, the powers that be love the fact that we can talk about a 'was it a goal or not' for hours.....
One person might think that this is the best formation whilst another may think completely differently. Who's right? It's open to opinion and debate and because there will I don't think ever be 'formation technology' this will be one of the discussion points that will continue long after the ball has crossed the line as confirmed by goal line technology.
The formation or the team selection, the substitute policy unless that substitute scores a few minutes after coming on will always be questioned. Was he introduced too early, too late......no.... perfect timing he was there in the right place at the right time.
Same for the owners. From my side of the fence they have screwed up many times. But I only see my side of the fence. I don't see theirs and what may seem obvious to me isn't necessarily right, its just my opinion.
We all want this club to succeed, I'm 61 years young and remember my team when it was a force to be reckoned with. When we played some of the best football played by any English team around. Do I yearn for those days? You bet I do!
But my years tell me to be a realist. The proverbial goalposts have moved and alas we never noticed this happening and then tried to join the big boys again when we just weren't ready. An England team build around QPR, the youngsters wouldn't believe us!
So let's just hope that irrespective of our views, the manager does know what he is talking about, the board have a plan for starting to rebuild the club with strong and solid foundations. We are after all despite our differences....QPR supporters.
No doubt although I recognize no one from this board......... see you tomorrow afternoon, 3pm sharp!
UR's
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