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Post by harr on Oct 30, 2016 21:54:30 GMT
Chris Ramsey was sacked a year ago this week.
He was in charge for 15 games ..... Amassed 19 points in that time and we were 13th in the table. We had scored 22 goals and conceded 24 goals (-2)
A year on with JFH, this season he has been in charge 15 games, we have amassed 19 points, we are 14 th in the table. We have scored just 16 goals and conceded 21 goals (-5)
Seriously, please tell me how this is progress bearing in mind the Ramsey appointment was riddiculed and supposed to be so bad.
JFH had the luxury of experiencing with the squad for 31 games last season, something Ramsey did not get.
I just wonder where we will be come 15 games into the 17-18 season ?
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A Year on
Oct 30, 2016 23:08:12 GMT
via mobile
Post by sharky on Oct 30, 2016 23:08:12 GMT
Our squad this time last year was stronger (Charlie etc)
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Post by harr on Oct 31, 2016 7:27:19 GMT
Really, but we also had players that we never wanted, they were some of lazy ones like your Fer, Hoillett, Phillips that have been replaced with better. Sylla,Wszelok,NGBakato,Cousins,Lynch And Ale who couldnt hack the new system, not that I have seen this high tempo game(leeds apart) and replaced with Borysiuk etc. Also strengthened our defence with players like Bidwell. To say Austin is the reason we are at the same level is not really justified, he has had some other decent additions, ones he wanted.
We will still be saying we miss austin in 10 years at this rate.
Still JFH needs every ounce of help he can get.
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Post by bowranger on Oct 31, 2016 10:33:54 GMT
For me, the big issue is that the progress we have made is not necessarily showing on the week to week starting 11, or at least, not in our performances. That's what most fans are most emotionally involved in (I definitely am) - but that's also why, whilst not being happy with where we are at, I think it's not totally fair to make such a direct comparison with Ramsey.
In many ways, the players you're noting are better but they could go either way. I feel like the attitude is better and I feel happier to see them pull on the hoops. Phillips was lazy at least 50% of the time but he still pitched in a with a good chunk of assists - Ngbakato we've barely seen and the others have looked promising so far, but most are adjusting to a new division and in many cases a new country. I think Bidwell is one of the few who we can pretty categorically say we know what we're getting - he's been there, done it before and he's been consistent for us so far - just like Brentford fans said he would be.
Ramsey was dealing with the tail end of a split squad. JFH has been tasked with rebuilding (push out high earners, replace with low earners) a squad with Les and getting it playing well. We've made loads of progress on the first bits. We've also made progress with how we treat youth players - Shodipo or Kakay or Hamalainen would never have got a chance if Redknapp or Hughes were still here. It's a very different situation to Ramsey.
I get your point about Austin - but you can't discount his impact. He dragged us up kicking and screaming under Redknapp and was often the difference under Ramsey. How many games did we win when we would have drawn without him? He used to pull goals out of nothing. Same thing with Taarabt under Warnock - that was a hell of a well-oiled, well-drilled team but it was largely based on facilitating Taarabt's infuriating attitude and phenomenal talent - take him out, that's a very different team. Unless we're very, very lucky in unearthing a real gem, we don't have a player like that anymore because we can't compete in the transfer market. Everyone knew Taarabt was mecurial before he came to QPR but needed a manager who could handle his ego, Austin had already done the business with Burnley. So whilst I agree that you can't ignore the comparison just for one player, we shouldn't underestimate just how crucial players like that are when you make a comparison.
Agree that JFH needs all the help he can get and people are entitled to make comparisons to last season, I just don't think it's the right barometer - different squad, different remits, different people. We should judge JFH on his own merits and the situation we are in right now and what we reasonably want out of 2016/17.
To me, that would be assessing whether...1) he can assemble a squad on a tight budget that has the capacity to grow and improve 2) to shift on the high earners 3) to get that new squad to gel and play attractive, competitive, football and 4) to survive solidly in this division. For me, he's done alright so far on the first two points, he's failing on point 3 in terms of consistency and tactics/gameplan/ability to change the game and we don't know about point four until May, although I'd argue that we're still playing like most mid-table Championship sides are.
That's my own criteria - I don't know if that's what the board has set out or whether other fans have higher or lower expectations. But I feel like something like that is more relevant than lining him up against another manager from last season who was running the team with a different squad with different priorities.
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Post by harr on Oct 31, 2016 12:05:21 GMT
Ok thats fair enough. I only compared the two as was reading something about Ramsey the other day and it said he went 1st week November and then was curious to find out how many points he had at that stage and learnt it was 15 games with 19 points , exactly same as JFH.
Austin was huge for us but we cant keep using that excuse year after year. Managers all over the country lose there best strikers and move on, so do we now as much as I hate him playing elsewhere.
The younger players coming through, tigher budget , younger better players , sensible signings all great points but at the end of the day need a Manager that can actually get them all playing as a tight unit. Tight defence, compact midfield, good striking formations, good tactics and desire to win. Sadly lots of this lacking and all the good points being done around the club and budgets and ffp being let down by the actual coaches not doing what they are paid to do.
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Post by bowranger on Oct 31, 2016 12:20:30 GMT
Ok thats fair enough. I only compared the two as was reading something about Ramsey the other day and it said he went 1st week November and then was curious to find out how many points he had at that stage and learnt it was 15 games with 19 points , exactly same as JFH. Austin was huge for us but we cant keep using that excuse year after year. Managers all over the country lose there best strikers and move on, so do we now as much as I hate him playing elsewhere. The younger players coming through, tigher budget , younger better players , sensible signings all great points but at the end of the day need a Manager that can actually get them all playing as a tight unit. Tight defence, compact midfield, good striking formations, good tactics and desire to win. Sadly lots of this lacking and all the good points being done around the club and budgets and ffp being let down by the actual coaches not doing what they are paid to do. It's definitely an interesting point to make for comparison and discussion, not denying that. True, we aren't the only ones to be in that boat in terms of losing out on a key striker. I think the difference is still in the situation, though. If you're a well-ran club with a good scouting network, you lose a good striker, you make a profit and you go and buy someone else good with part of the cash - like Burnley did. If you're QPR in the last year or so, unfortunately we have to take the profit and use most of it to try and plug our debts and hope we turn up a rough gem with the part we allow ourselves to spend. Agree with the main point though - it is a shame that we aren't seeing as many positive performances to match the positives off the pitch. On paper, the league position and points tally doesn't scare me that much but the manner of the defeats that bother me most. You see a glimmer of hope in genuinely promising performances against Bristol City and Sheff Weds and then a full on capitulation against Brentford. There's inconsistency and then there's that heh; one step forward, three steps back every couple of weeks.
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Post by harr on Oct 31, 2016 12:33:06 GMT
Ok thats fair enough. I only compared the two as was reading something about Ramsey the other day and it said he went 1st week November and then was curious to find out how many points he had at that stage and learnt it was 15 games with 19 points , exactly same as JFH. Austin was huge for us but we cant keep using that excuse year after year. Managers all over the country lose there best strikers and move on, so do we now as much as I hate him playing elsewhere. The younger players coming through, tigher budget , younger better players , sensible signings all great points but at the end of the day need a Manager that can actually get them all playing as a tight unit. Tight defence, compact midfield, good striking formations, good tactics and desire to win. Sadly lots of this lacking and all the good points being done around the club and budgets and ffp being let down by the actual coaches not doing what they are paid to do. It's definitely an interesting point to make for comparison and discussion, not denying that. True, we aren't the only ones to be in that boat in terms of losing out on a key striker. I think the difference is still in the situation, though. If you're a well-ran club with a good scouting network, you lose a good striker, you make a profit and you go and buy someone else good with part of the cash - like Burnley did. If you're QPR in the last year or so, unfortunately we have to take the profit and use most of it to try and plug our debts and hope we turn up a rough gem with the part we allow ourselves to spend. Agree with the main point though - it is a shame that we aren't seeing as many positive performances to match the positives off the pitch. On paper, the league position and points tally doesn't scare me that much but the manner of the defeats that bother me most. You see a glimmer of hope in genuinely promising performances against Bristol City and Sheff Weds and then a full on capitulation against Brentford. There's inconsistency and then there's that heh; one step forward, three steps back every couple of weeks. Maybe we just want to much. Maybe we are just going to be a bottom half table for a few years and wont get near the playoffs as the other teams are just to strong for us. I guess its not the end of the world, its a great league to be in. However I think our owners deep down see us as challenging for 6th spot, even this season.
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Post by bowranger on Oct 31, 2016 12:48:58 GMT
It's definitely an interesting point to make for comparison and discussion, not denying that. True, we aren't the only ones to be in that boat in terms of losing out on a key striker. I think the difference is still in the situation, though. If you're a well-ran club with a good scouting network, you lose a good striker, you make a profit and you go and buy someone else good with part of the cash - like Burnley did. If you're QPR in the last year or so, unfortunately we have to take the profit and use most of it to try and plug our debts and hope we turn up a rough gem with the part we allow ourselves to spend. Agree with the main point though - it is a shame that we aren't seeing as many positive performances to match the positives off the pitch. On paper, the league position and points tally doesn't scare me that much but the manner of the defeats that bother me most. You see a glimmer of hope in genuinely promising performances against Bristol City and Sheff Weds and then a full on capitulation against Brentford. There's inconsistency and then there's that heh; one step forward, three steps back every couple of weeks. Maybe we just want to much. Maybe we are just going to be a bottom half table for a few years and wont get near the playoffs as the other teams are just to strong for us. I guess its not the end of the world, its a great league to be in. However I think our owners deep down see us as challenging for 6th spot, even this season. That's how I see it, yeah. In terms of infrastructure, fanbase and current financial power, we are a lower/mid Championship side at best really. Doesn't mean that's "all" we are - QPR have always had really great periods of shrewd management and punching above our weight. Every club will say the same but we've got a fantastic heritage too - we're more than our league position or bank balance, we're QPR. I think the last few years and trends in modern football in general (which I've banged on about elsewhere) have made the situation at QPR quite toxic, unfortunately, in terms of attitudes and expectations. Some of that is down to us as fans, a lot of it is down to how poorly our club has been ran - I'm just hoping that the long term result of this difficult transitional period for our club is a re-assessment of "who" QPR are as a club and a re-connection with our own identity. My personal opinion is that is totally rooted from the Briatore era onwards in terms of alienation and disillusionment - which is kind of why I feel so sad about the level of anger at the club currently. I'm not happy with how things are on the pitch a lot of the time but I'm genuinely happier going to LR than I have been for years - certainly week to week more than I did when Redknapp or Hughes were here. The wins mean more, the defeats hurt more, probably because I feel the club is moving, slowly, in the right direction. Maybe that's because my formative years were watching our side under Holloway, I don't know. I genuinely reckon a well-fought draw from a cobbled together Holloway side felt more satisfying than a win ground out by Redknapp or Hughes, watching Bosingwa, Assou-Ekotto and Ji Sung-Park piss about. We might not be very good right now, but it at least feels like QPR to me. On the owners, I totally agree. If this season improves and we have a little run of games together that puts us near the play-off positions, I can see TF having a bloody excitement overload. For all the talk of sensible transitions and whatnot, people often buy football clubs because they like winning stuff.
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Post by marshbowles10 on Oct 31, 2016 16:58:43 GMT
I think it is difficult comparing one manager against another. I was lucky to only go to 2 away matches that season.....at Sunderland and West Brom...both I think under Chris!
The key to me is not the comparison but after a year what has been achieved?
Have we seen an improvement in the team? If we haven't, are there any signs that the team is going in the right direction?
Has JFH been more intelligent with the players at his disposal compared to what Chris had to work with?
From what I see they are quite similar.
Chris was out of his depth in the Premiership
Jimmy is out of his depth in the Championship.
The key question is can he learn quick enough about tactics/player development etc or did he 'peak' at Burton?
Our Club has fallen a long way.
None of the blame lies with JFH most of it lies at the foot of the respective owners that we have endured over the past few years that saw little more in QPR than a boutique plaything or a vehicle to build houses, a cinema, shopping centre and a 40,000 stadia for the football club.
Just seen Martin Rowlands shopping in M&S........asked him if he'd play next Saturday.
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Oct 31, 2016 17:54:08 GMT
JFH not really cutting it at the moment, but our squad isn't the greatest.
Which of our players would an aspiring team like, say, Brighton want?
Can't actually think of one nailed-on certainty - just possibly Luongo or Chery (on a good day) - and Smithies and Ingram are decent in goal.
So what do we realistically expect? Is JFH's buying poor - or is he constrained by budget?
Did he peak at Burton? Maybe... or perhaps he was riding on the coat-tails of Gary Rowett (who seemed to have built and established that successful Burton side)?
Let's hope we can shift the last of the dead wood in January, maybe get one or two in, and hope some of our injured players get back soon. Perhaps then we can play a settled team who know how to play together.
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Post by harr on Oct 31, 2016 20:09:30 GMT
JFH not really cutting it at the moment, but our squad isn't the greatest. Which of our players would an aspiring team like, say, Brighton want? Can't actually think of one nailed-on certainty - just possibly Luongo or Chery (on a good day) - and Smithies and Ingram are decent in goal. So what do we realistically expect? Is JFH's buying poor - or is he constrained by budget? Did he peak at Burton? Maybe... or perhaps he was riding on the coat-tails of Gary Rowett (who seemed to have built and established that successful Burton side)? Let's hope we can shift the last of the dead wood in January, maybe get one or two in, and hope some of our injured players get back soon. Perhaps then we can play a settled team who know how to play together. I disagree Ashdown. We have some good players. Hall, Bidwell, Luongo, Smithies, Chery, Cylla, Borysiuk, NBakoto, Wszolek,Cousins, these players are more than capable of competing in this League. Maybe they are not being motivated, played in correct positions and they need to be led. We need leaders, maybe we should have kept Clint or Ale, two leaders but sadly Ale not fit for the hi tempo game we play. I'm not being funny but does Jimmy even research teams he is about to play, his game plans sometimes seem to bet set up by a ten year old, there quite often poor, wpecially at home. He doesnt seem flexible either and when he does make a mistake about not bring players into the starting 11 it takes him ages to realise he got it wrong, like Luongo and Chery for a month each last year. We dont have that much dead wood to shift now, its all gone apart from Sandro, possibly Caulker but we need to be getting more out the wood we do have. Jimmy was riding Rowetts coat tails though
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2016 16:57:01 GMT
We haven't progressed , the football is dire , the support is dwindling , he has to go but who we get next who knows ? Pearson , Clement ? Names that should've come before Jfh was given the job
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Post by harr on Nov 2, 2016 7:39:41 GMT
JFH ..talking to Kilburn Times We all know the reason Jimmy you were not up to the job. Feel so sorry for him, didums, should have been in charge when Holloway was.
He told the Times: “That is football. It is what it is. We all know that the budget has gone down and all that and we are working with younger players.
“I’m very happy with the squad I have and the players that are here. I don’t want to talk about the budget being cut.
“I want to concentrate on the players I have and that we have the right team and we are together.
“We all want to be pushing for the play-offs - of course we do.
“But at the moment it is important we get back on track first and foremost, and then hopefully we can string a few results together
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Post by marshbowles10 on Nov 2, 2016 8:02:37 GMT
I bet he didn't get paid £50,000 for that
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Post by harr on Nov 2, 2016 9:36:54 GMT
I bet he didn't get paid £50,000 for that Nope, just 10K for that and a free badge with "I am naive" on it.
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Nov 2, 2016 10:20:38 GMT
I disagree Ashdown. We have some good players. I DO think we have some decent players - just no 'stand out' players that the top teams in the Championship - or lower/mid Prem - would want in their first team. Some are finding their feet and may develop or hit a run of form. But as things are, we are 14th in the league because, realistically, that's about as good as we are. Jimmy was riding Rowetts coat tails though Agreed...
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Post by harr on Nov 2, 2016 15:44:43 GMT
I disagree Ashdown. We have some good players. I DO think we have some decent players - just no 'stand out' players that the top teams in the Championship - or lower/mid Prem - would want in their first team. Some are finding their feet and may develop or hit a run of form. But as things are, we are 14th in the league because, realistically, that's about as good as we are. Jimmy was riding Rowetts coat tails though Agreed... Yeah thats fair enough. There's a few like Chery, Luongo and others that will get better as the season goes on that could get moves to bottom end Prem teams. No we dont have an Austin or a Taraabt but most of the players have been pretty decent under the constraints Les has had. Apart from Gobern, who was useless and Gladwin who I wouldnt have paid 200k for let alone 2 Million, most of the others are good enough for where we want to be, a team challenging for 6th. Actually I dont rate the winger we bought from Burton much either, too lightweight. If we could have got our defence in order, something Jimmy has never done in a year and made us tough to beat and score the old goal we would be doing better. We rarely keep a clean sheet, always end up letting in a goal and very rarely score more than one goal. Sorry but that is just flawed, going to end up getting lots of single points and watching some pretty poor football. Thats what we get under Jimmy. (But as things are, we are 14th in the league because, realistically, that's about as good as we are. ) No. We are 14th in League because of how good Jimmy is. If someone else was in charge that actually managed properly we could quite easily have been 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th............ Look at teams like Huddersfield, Barnsley, etc they are doing ok, next we will saying we should be doing as good as Rotherham, just because JFH is incompetent.
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Post by sharky on Nov 2, 2016 21:35:51 GMT
Wow a QPR manager lasting a year. Amazing
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Post by harr on Nov 3, 2016 7:40:14 GMT
Yeah and gawd knows how this one hasnt Altough if we can not beat a weak Forest team thats lost there last three, even they might jump with the International break upon us.
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