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Post by Macmoish on Mar 16, 2013 16:58:26 GMT
Updated Table www.sportinglife.com/football/live/league-tables1 Man Utd 28 71 37 68 17:30 - v Reading (h) 1/66 2 Man City 29 59 25 51 0 - 2 v Everton (a) 14/1 3 Tottenham 29 54 15 51 11/8 4 Chelsea 28 52 26 56 250/1 6 Everton 29 48 11 46 2 - 0 v Man City (h) 11/10 5 Arsenal 29 50 23 55 2 - 0 v Swansea (a) FT 13/8 7 Liverpool 30 45 18 57 1 - 3 v Southampton (a) FT 8/1 8 West Brom 30 44 2 40 0 - 0 v Stoke City (a) FT 5/1 9 Swansea 30 40 2 40 0 - 2 v Arsenal (h) FT 12/1 11 Fulham 28 33 -5 39 9/4 10 Stoke City 30 34 -8 27 0 - 0 v West Brom (h) FT 2/1 12 West Ham 28 33 -9 32 3/1 13 Newcastle 29 33 -10 40 2/1 14 Norwich 29 33 -18 27 9/2 16 Sunderland 29 30 -9 32 7/2 15 Southampton 30 31 -10 42 3 - 1 v Liverpool (h) FT 9/1 17 A Villa 30 30 -25 31 3 - 2 v QPR (h) FT 40/1 18 Wigan 28 24 -22 33 11/10 19 Reading 29 23 -21 35 17:30 - v Man Utd (a) 4/1 20 QPR 30 23 -22 26 2 - 3 v A Villa (a) FT 11/8
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Post by londonranger on Mar 16, 2013 17:07:45 GMT
A game of two halves.
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Post by gramps on Mar 16, 2013 17:08:00 GMT
OK, come on you "we can do this" people!
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Post by nomar on Mar 16, 2013 17:12:09 GMT
OK, come on you "we can do this" people! Not really constructive this, is it? Possibly the dagger in our heart after signs of life and you want to start calling people out who were trying to be positive about our chances? I know I've been fairly negative most of the season but this is poor form in my opinion, Gramps.
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Post by superckat on Mar 16, 2013 17:21:15 GMT
We gave away 3 poor goals today.
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Post by londonranger on Mar 16, 2013 17:22:56 GMT
Im gutted. Especially after we were so good in first half then at whistle they score a very soft goal,
which took us down much too much as 2nd half we were chasing the game, score one and come away
with nothing. Yes effectiveley with Soton winning, it doesnt look good. Well heres what ESPN said.
Christian Benteke eased Aston Villa's relegation fears and pushed bottom-placed QPR nearer to the drop as his late winner settled a pulsating Barclays Premier League clash.
Rangers dominated the opening half at Villa Park and deservedly led through a goal from midfielder Jermaine Jenas, only for Gabriel Agbonlahor to level against the run of play.
Andreas Weimann put the home side ahead early in the second half and, after Andros Townsend made it 2-2, Villa's Austrian striker set up the winner for Benteke.
It was Belgium international Benteke's seventh goal in the last eight league games and took his overall tally to 17 since his £8million summer move from Genk.
For much of the first half, QPR looked like a side brimming with confidence after their back-to-back wins against Southampton and Sunderland.
Only heroics from in-form Villa goalkeeper Brad Guzan and the woodwork prevented the visitors wrapping up the points before half-time.
Villa seldom posed a threat during the opening 45 minutes, with Christopher Samba winning his aerial battle with Benteke.
But the home side woke up and looked more dangerous after the break with Weimann deserving his goal for an energetic and committed display.
Benteke started to make his presence felt and his winner showed again why manager Paul Lambert believes he has already doubled in value as a Villa player.
Villa knocked the ball around in confident style in the very early stages.
QPR goalkeeper Julio Cesar picked up what might have been considered a back-pass from defender Jose Bosingwa, who came under pressure from Agbonlahor, but referee Kevin Friend waved play on.
The visitors stepped up a gear and Guzan made two excellent saves in the space of 60 seconds to keep his side on level terms.
The United States international backpedalled to turn a looping header from Samba over the bar after he had connected with a Bosingwa free-kick.
Then Guzan made an even better save to turn aside another effort from Samba, this time from just inside the box.
QPR midfielder Stephane M'Bia was the first player to be yellow-carded, bringing down Weimann.
Villa were forced into a change after 20 minutes when Nathan Baker appeared to be concussed in an aerial challenge with Samba and he was replaced by Joe Bennett.
The left-back made a shaky entrance into proceedings with his misdirected pass leading to Jermaine Jenas giving QPR the lead after 23 minutes.
Bennett played a square pass just inside his own half which was seized on by Jenas who released Zamora in space.
Zamora's low drive was parried by Guzan but Jenas continued his run into the box and was first to the loose ball to make no mistake from close range.
Villa midfielders Yacouba Sylla and Barry Bannan were booked in quick succession for fouls on Townsend and Weimann for arguing after QPR were awarded a free-kick.
The woodwork came to Villa's rescue when Bosingwa's powerful free-kick struck a post.
But in first-half injury-time Agbonlahor brought the home side level when he peeled off to the far post and headed home a right-wing cross from Matt Lowton.
Villa looked more dangerous after the interval and a Weimann header was tipped over by Cesar from Bennett's cross.
Then after 59 minutes Bennett atoned for his earlier costly error by setting up Weimann for his 11th goal of the season.
The former Middlesbrough player showed good control before supplying the pass to Weimann who cut inside before drilling a low left-footed shot past Cesar from 15 yards.
Lowton could have made it 3-1 but scuffed his shot across the face of goal.
Then with 17 minutes left the impressive Townsend made it 2-2. Loic Remy and Ji-Sung Park combined to tee up Townsend and his shot took a slight deflection as it flew past Guzan.
Villa responded and after 81 minutes Weimann turned goal-maker with his low cross turned in by Benteke after good play by substitute Charles N'Zogbia. This time QPR had no response and they now stand seven points adrift of safety with eight games to play.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 17:24:11 GMT
OK, come on you "we can do this" people! Not really constructive this, is it? Possibly the dagger in our heart after signs of life and you want to start calling people out who were trying to be positive about our chances? I know I've been fairly negative most of the season but this is poor form in my opinion, Gramps. Agree with Nomar here Very Poor response I think Gramps!!!....You can do alot better than that from past post's.....That comment not helpful at all!!
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Post by nomar on Mar 16, 2013 17:24:56 GMT
We gave away 3 poor goals today. Yes we did. Unfortunately you cannot defend like that and expect to stay in this league. Unfortunately I think Villa wanted this more than we did. The equalizer just before half time killed our momentum and the second half we were pretty awful. You could say we deserved a point but football doesn't always work that way. Hill got exposed today. Pace kills him and Villa knew it. Bosingwa reverted back to the way he's been most of the season and never challenged Weimann for the 3rd goal.
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Post by alfaranger on Mar 16, 2013 17:26:25 GMT
OK, come on you "we can do this" people! Not really constructive this, is it? Possibly the dagger in our heart after signs of life and you want to start calling people out who were trying to be positive about our chances? I know I've been fairly negative most of the season but this is poor form in my opinion, Gramps. I am quite heartened actually. I could only listen to the first half but formed the impression that we were a bit better than Villa. The commentary had moved to St. Mary's (I think) when Villa equalised. I was ok on first row for the second half once I had cleared all the women that wanted a bit of me and the money making schemes. I know this is most likely a disaster but I am with Nomar here and I get a bit saddened with the 'I told you so' approach, there's no need to rub it in. I hope this is not connected with the dislike of Harry at any cost. I rather thought that we did ok. The game was a good spectacle, it seems we could have scored more than we did right up to the last second, and we didnt give up. There was none of that callow attitude that the team displayed before Christmas mostly under Hughes. Frankly it was exciting, its just such a shame that we didnt get at least a draw. If we're going down we're at least fighting as we sink.
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Post by superckat on Mar 16, 2013 17:40:57 GMT
Conceding the first goal was a sickner. We just hit the post got a corner and was tha Boswinger p*ssing about with the ball before losing it for them to break away and score. Whoever it was deserves shooting. That was there first effort on goal on 48 minutes and they score. We still looked better than we have most of this season and didn't deserve to lose. But defensively we gave away 3 goals and 3 points in a six pointer. You can't get away with that in any division.
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Post by steeleyranger on Mar 16, 2013 17:52:33 GMT
I was only able to watch until half time and was impressed by our play and dominance . I was gutted when they got the undeserved equalizer on half time and somehow knew that it would change the game result. Unfortunately that turned out to be the case ! Gutted because I was really believing after watching that first half!!!
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Post by gramps on Mar 16, 2013 17:55:23 GMT
Well now, I am once again sorry for having an opinion about our chances of staying up. If some of you think this is 'poor form' well, tough! We have freedom of speech on this board and if there are those who can't read the writing on the wall................
Believe it or not, I shall not have a sleepless night because you don't like me saying what I think.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 17:56:16 GMT
We gave away 3 poor goals today. Yes we did. Unfortunately you cannot defend like that and expect to stay in this league. Unfortunately I think Villa wanted this more than we did. The equalizer just before half time killed our momentum and the second half we were pretty awful. You could say we deserved a point but football doesn't always work that way. Hill got exposed today. Pace kills him and Villa knew it. Bosingwa reverted back to the way he's been most of the season and never challenged Weimann for the 3rd goal. Bosingwa is C##T!!! Hope Arry drops him!!! Don't care how much money the greedy gutlesss twat is on!!! He's everything thats bad about Footballers & he's ex chelski scum !!!........So that's enough for me!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 17:59:38 GMT
Well now, I am once again sorry for having an opinion about our chances of staying up. If some of you think this is 'poor form' well, tough! We have freedom of speech on this board and if there are those who can't read the writing on the wall................ Still not helpful!!! & thats coming from me who isn't the most cheery of posters at the best of times!!!......But yes your quite right freedom of speech is what the board is about!! But it cut's both ways Gramps..........I mean your gonna get a response if you challenge other posters like that!!!..........That again is freedom of speech on this board!!!
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Post by Macmoish on Mar 16, 2013 18:53:10 GMT
Personally I'm a chronic pessimist. But deep down, I don't really believe it's that bad! As long as we exist as a football club, there is always hope. When we were set to be subsumed into Wimbledon: That was the end. All the rest is just hiccups in being a QPR Supporter! Now personally, not being at the actual ground, for me the worst part of the week, may actually be the 90 minutes we actually play (Unless we're 3-0 up). If we go down, and sell off all our stars, still would start with the hope - if perhaps not expectation - of instant promotion By the way: DAMN YOU MARK HUGHES
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Post by londonranger on Mar 16, 2013 19:00:32 GMT
There is freedom of speech mates obviously. What is at stake here imo is a group ethic on our blog
to keep a state of rationality in our emotionality. This was a massive game and we blew it. But we did
fight back and with another 3 minutes could have got a result. Im an old timer like Gramps and to
stay balanced and a QPR fan for me is defending ones self esteem, ie the best, can turn into the worst
easily. Rationally beating Villa there , aint easy with relegation at stake. I identify with Gramps and
he was trying to restore himself because he has been sure for a long time that we wont stay up.
Others have too. Until Hughes was let go I thought they would. I dont think Gramps is blaming
anyone. Perhaps he could have phrased it better, but my ego and many of ours is bruised by this
loss and most likeley is the turning point. Then bruised by gramps words. A Rangers fans lot is not
an easy one and I think we have to try and help each other in particularly stressful days.
I love Gramps, I know he has had serious problems at home and I can assure all mates that he is a
delightful individual without any malice. I think if he had to do it over he wouldnt challenge the faith
in a direct way and would have softened it.
I write this to help, I hope, some sense of equanimity in a Report style.
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Post by birchambluerinse on Mar 16, 2013 19:15:55 GMT
Sorry Gramps but to me it seems like you could'nt wait to put yr 2 bobs worth dig in with your "told you so" comment.. like i said before "positively negative" ref QPR staying up.. freedom of speech indeed...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 19:40:38 GMT
Sorry Gramps but to me it seems like you could'nt wait to put yr 2 bobs worth dig in with your "told you so" comment.. like i said before "positively negative" ref QPR staying up.. freedom of speech indeed... He He "QPR staying up"............yep freedom of speech alright & Total fan dedication..........If only I could be so positive!!!.......But that's what we need to hear on the board maybe it will do the business on the pitch!!!
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Post by marianqpr on Mar 16, 2013 20:15:53 GMT
I am absolutely devastated after today's result. I was one of the foolish ones who let myself believe that things were improving after back to back wins. Then again, maybe we could win all our games in April Anyway, I'm not sure how much more of this I can take.......
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Post by RoryTheRanger on Mar 16, 2013 20:17:49 GMT
Let's not argue please guys.
Have to say today is the most pissed off I've been all season. Typical Rangers to build up some hope and then collapse as per usual. How we weren't at least 3-0 up at HT I will never know.
Would say that a 7 point gap with 8 games to go is beyond us now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2013 20:46:26 GMT
Let's not argue please guys. Have to say today is the most pissed off I've been all season. Typical Rangers to build up some hope and then collapse as per usual. How we weren't at least 3-0 up at HT I will never know. Would say that a 7 point gap with 8 games to go is beyond us now. Agree with you there Rory. Looking at the bottom three us, Reading & Wigan...............& don't think it will change much over the next eight games. Maybe we might be second or third from bottom but I fear the current bottom three (Which includes us) will be the three going down!!!
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Post by obk on Mar 16, 2013 21:22:52 GMT
Well, I've been telling you told you so for months now. So I'm with gramps, but I could really really use one or two "we can do it" people to pick me up a little
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Post by Macmoish on Mar 16, 2013 21:35:14 GMT
OK....
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Post by scarletpimple on Mar 16, 2013 23:29:53 GMT
Well if we are going down, we'll take a couple of the fookers with us.
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Post by steeleyranger on Mar 17, 2013 2:33:41 GMT
I commented earlier that I watched upto half time -well now I've seen the rest and whichever way I look at it Aston Villa were incredibly lucky to take all 3 points ! Yes Cesar made mistakes, we still created plenty of chances and mostly we were determined to the end. I don't think its right to slate individuals it looked to me like everyone was giving 100%. It was just one of those games which we didn't deserve to lose or even draw in my opinion. But unfortunately we did lose but I still believe that playing like that we will get some more wins before the season is out-unfortunately it now looks like it will be too late-and I am the eternal optimist! Trying not to be too negative-any team is only as strong as its weakest player(s) and I would say its pretty obvious where our weakness has been throughout apart from when we were playing a 10 man defense. Tactically -I'm surprised that M'Bia hasn't been played at the back to give some more pace there,especially as we have plenty of midfield options? Seems a little obvious to me but I haven't observed M'Bia live and therefore may be missing something about him?
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Post by Lonegunmen on Mar 17, 2013 2:56:49 GMT
I actually thought both sides played quite well. Better than some of the other teams in this League. I enjoyed the game, not the result, but the game. Good to see Deadly Doug Ellis is still breathing.
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Post by steveb66 on Mar 17, 2013 8:11:22 GMT
There is still hope in my opinion because if you look at how a couple of weekends can very quickly change the whole complexion of the table then the last two weekends are a case in point.
We all know that survival looks improbable but it is not impossible. Another set of back to back wins in two games that are most definitely winnable and things will look very different again. If we can achieve this there will still be six games left and a couple of home wins and a draw or two would see us on 37/38 points. Admittedly a lot of ifs and buts but looking at the remaining fixtures there is no reason why we cant get 14 or 15 points from whats left. We just need to play for 90 minutes the way we played for 45 yesterday.
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Post by ingham on Mar 17, 2013 10:38:46 GMT
I'm with Rory on this one.
A few 'I told you so's' are inevitable when there is so much build-up, and so much 'keep the faith' and 'belief'. If Hughes had come good - and there was a good deal of excitement about his impressive run of wins at the end of last season - the doubters would have had a few 'I told you so's' to contend with, I'm sure.
It is fair enough to imply that gramps should approach things with an open mind if that is what the rest of us are doing, but we find it very difficult to do that.
We tell ourselves over and over again that success is just around the corner. That, finally, we have 'the man' in the dug-out, the men on the pitch, and the masterminds in the boardroom.
And we produce the arguments, analyses, practically the future statistics, to back it up. He'll do it, they'll do it, they'll keep us up, they'll turn things round. They love the Club, they're dedicated, they're here for the long haul, THEY believe in the same things we do.
Personally, I think an open mind would be far more realistic. If we approached things with a more open mind - we have to have SOME fun, and predictions and speculations make discussions like this possible - there would be nothing for gramps to say 'I told you so' about.
And no doubt there will be a few 'returns' if Redknapp does pull the rabbit out of the hat. It isn't impossible. I'm sure he isn't completely clueless.
After all, HUGHES did it.
What bothers me more is the lack of evidence. Generally, because we have no idea what will happen next, no-one does. But specifically, too. Whenever I try to picture the 'new QPR', none of the various models proposed entirely rings true. Yes, it is easy - superficially - to imagine the Club suddenly clicking, and emerging as an impressive force, something like Robson's remarkable Ipswich side in the late 70s, early 80s. Consistent, attractive, constantly overperforming for a Club of its size, with a shrewd youth policy, and the odd quality bargain-buy signing.
They were, perhaps, unique, in keeping it up so long, at such a small Club. But where have they been since? And if that was the most consistent (we were no slouches ourselves, in those days), what happened to all the rest?
A small Club gets a few years. Or used to. Certainly, they can manoeuvre themselves into mid-table, give or take a few points here and there, with maybe one or two outstanding seasons.
But most of us, even on just this one site, have been supporting the Club for the best part of a century.
Four years, and that's it, at the best. The managers in whom we reposed so much trust were gone almost overnight when something significant actually was achieved, even at the lower level. Either the Club gets ideas, or the manager does. Stock, Jago, Sexton and Venables - Gregory's four magicians - lasted hardly more than a year after they'd laid the foundations.
And Gregory, the major element of continuity, got the stuff in the shop window, made a quick killing, had his clearance sale, and started from scratch. He did the same with the Club, looking to scrap QPR, make a quick buck, and trade our league position in for a new model after our most gloriously successful season!
Everything they do tells us THEY don't believe. Why do they keep on making LOANS? Because they want to get the money they advance back not IF, but WHEN, we don't succeed. If it is right to expect a measure of optimism of ourselves, why don't we expect it of them? Why don't we think they SHOULD get the money only when they deliver?
It seems strange that we can be critical of each others' views - and there's nothing wrong in that, per se - and expect a healthy combination of realism (we are a small Club after all), and optimism (we would like to overperform more regularly) in our own attitudes - but we take it for granted that it would be silly to expect optimism of them.
'When do I get paid, boss?' When you win, fool. But the manager can't say that, because he will be paid to fail as well.
Why do managers move on when they've done well? It can't be because they believe in QPR. They may like it here, the players may like it here, or they may not. But they do not believe in our 'potential'. They want 'investment' because it goes straight into their pocket and disappears forever. And shareholders want 'investment' because the proceeds of that investment will disappear into their pockets and be gone forever.
They have fun, make millions, and the Club remains small, indeed it is arguably smaller than it was when Gregory took over.
They give us two messages all the time. One is in clear, and is what they want us to believe, and one is encoded, and is what they believe. One is in words, the other is in actions.
The words are part of the patter, like a magician's. And the trick won't work if we see what they are REALLY up to. So the talk and the big spending and the high-profile manager appointments are calaculated to draw our attention away to those rosy dreams, all the bigger and better the more vague and more unrealistic they are.
And curiously, the more money the Club loses pursuing these chimaeras, the more grandiose those schemes become. A stripped-down, bargain-buy, home-grown Gregory-type QPR becomes less and less likely the bigger the debt mountain grows, so they see no possibility of taking the Club to the top a la Ramsey at Ipswich from 1955-1962. No steady, down-to-earth accumulation of expertise, gradually, learning from experience. slowly developing with all the setbacks and delays that implies.
No, it will happen almost overnight, with even BIGGER spending. Attendances will more or less treble from the Club's present average. We can't start small, it seems, but we can start big.
If the manager and players got their money on commission - no result, no money - and the 'investors' made theirs out of the profits - no profits, no pay-off, we would know they believed in the Club's future, and their future with the Club.
What is most striking in all of this - and it would produce a whole sackful of 'I told you so's' if anyone denied it - is that none of us expects them to. To them, at least, this IS a business, but it is their business, not ours, and not QPR's. They expect to be paid whether they perform or not, whether they play or not, whether they succeed or not.
They provide other clubs with a team it can beat, which is far more likely - and much easier on them - than building a team all the others CAN'T beat. And they ensure they get paid on that basis. Not that will show that they are good enough, but that it is overwhelmingly more likely that they will prove that they are not.
They are not in the business of making QPR successful. They are in the football business, and the business of football does not depend on one Club being successful at the expense of others. If that was the case, they would all be on the dole. Instead, the losers all get tens of millions from TV and other sources just for showing up.
That is their club.
If they really believed, and if they really believed in 'investment', it would make far more sense to leave all that money IN the Club - to hedge the CLUB'S fortunes against hard times - and take the win bonuses and share of the profits as and when they deliver on all the things they insist will happen if only WE believe.
So our real concern, perhaps, should be not that 'Arry will fail to keep us up, or that he won't stay, or that he won't get us back up if he does, or whatever will or won't happen then, but that there is precious little evidence that any improvement will last.
We are bound to do better sometime. And to have a good run sometime. Whether we go down or not. Every Club does, often by dropping down the leagues to the point where it IS a big Club.
So it isn't the closed minds of supporter pessimists or optimists that bother me. I don't believe our minds are closed. But our instinctive realism is constantly under attack from people who have a vested interest in undermining it.
That realism is a threat. Any lack of enthusiasm for them is a threat. They are lucky to have us, and they know it. None of them is capable of sustaining a league Club through thick and thin, come what may - only its supporters.
So me, I believe in us. Whatever our temperamental inclinations are, towards believing or not believing. We are entitled to our opinions, all of them.
And when I see that they are as committed as our supporters - remaining loyal when we get NO money at all, and irrespective of whether the Club wins or loses, succeeds or doesn't - then, and only then, will I believe in them.
The supporters, and the Club. None of these people would be anything without Clubs like ours. We provide them with everything, and are they grateful?
Yeah, right.
Great thread, great posts, and don't shoot gramps yet, optimists. You may yet have a chance to say 'I told you so' before the end of the season.
Or vice versa, as the case may be!
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Post by steveb66 on Mar 17, 2013 11:42:57 GMT
You are certainly a man of words Ingham but in summary most of us have supported QPR and reluctantly accepted that we have always been a 'selling' club. Since the arrival of TF, AB et al we have become a 'buying' club. We are now reported as having an 89 mln debt, The natural reaction to this shift in policy is one of greater expectation which has, as yet, been unfulfilled.
Most of us would no doubt settle for the mid table security that you mention. The club and we, the fans, desperately seek a period of solidity, security and consolidation after so many turbulent times.
As for divided opinions whether they be short and sweet and at times a little cutting or long and rather complex , we all remain entitled to ours.
It is unlikely that any small/medium sized club will ever challenge the top six on a year in, year out basis because of the huge sums required to compete at the highest level these days. Champions League and the Premiership is the stuff of schoolboy dreams but equally when I look at Bolton, Blackburn and particularly Wolverhampton Wanderers, yesterdays result sends a shiver down my spine.
I think we all accept the point that the only constant in any football club is its supporters. Just take a look at the recent League that we did come top of, the number of new managers league! Or look at the player in and out stats of the last three transfer windows. The real point is, what do our or any other smaller clubs supporters actually want?
I cant speak for others but I want to watch good football, I want to pay a fair price for my tickets, I want Premiership consolidation, I definitely want to be going to the Emirates and Old Trafford and not Oakwell and Ashton Gate, I want a Cup Trophy, I want a good Manager and Management team that care about my club but I also want my club to remain friendly, family orientated and accessible....am I asking/wanting too much and what do others want from their club?
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Post by Macmoish on Mar 17, 2013 11:45:21 GMT
Start with my club continuing to exist as a seperate independent club.
Rather have QPR in League Two, than QPR-MKDons or QPR-Fulham (Fulham Park Rangers) or any other merger - in the Premiership. That just for starters
And have absolutely no problem with supporting a "small" QPR even if less successful..
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