|
Post by Macmoish on Apr 9, 2012 9:03:52 GMT
Forget the offside bit, that was clear on the film
But even if offside, if Derry DID push/trip him, couldnt that still be a penalty? (Forget whether he did, but IF he did)?
And ditto, the same query re sending off: Even if offside, ref can send someone off if he did something?
And if we appeal (as we are) and we lose? Does the one match suspension become two?
|
|
|
Post by mikehunt on Apr 9, 2012 9:11:21 GMT
derry did put his hand on him and make the slightest of tugs on his shirt (as young was diving though, but no matter). in the laws of the game that can be deemed a penalty this, as he was the last man and had a clear chance on goal. the penalty cannot be overturned either due to that fact. very soft penalty and 99 out of a 100 refs wouldnt of given it, but there is no way it will be overturned, so to refute it is pointless imho.
|
|
|
Post by jjqpr on Apr 9, 2012 9:12:06 GMT
I believe the suspension does become 2 games, I don't think the foul would count if offside though, the game would / should have stopped. its not like it was dangerous play in which case it might be different. anyway he didn't even touch him.
|
|
|
Post by gramps on Apr 9, 2012 9:22:40 GMT
Sorry, but my feeble brain is becoming confused here. I thought the sending off meant a three game suspension. Now there is talk of one match suspension becoming 2 games. Is this something to do with the amnesty thing? Can't be bothered to wade through the FA ruling on this. Please enlighten me, somebody.
|
|
|
Post by gramps on Apr 9, 2012 9:25:53 GMT
Agree though that the offside is nothing at all to do with it. Of course the referee can give a red card for any infringement - even if play has been stopped - so the appeal will be entirely to do with that. On re-looking at the incident I can see no way at all in which Mason's decision can be upheld but, as I have said elsewhere, this is the FA and this is Manure.
|
|
|
Post by mikehunt on Apr 9, 2012 9:27:26 GMT
its a one match ban cos it wasnt violent gramps. but if you appeal it and the f.a get the hump and say its a pointless appeal to delay the ruling and allow the man to play in more important games, they can make the ban even longer for being cheely and trying it on.
|
|
|
Post by jjqpr on Apr 9, 2012 9:28:36 GMT
You could be right with the length of ban gramps, it was a straight red. Anyway if anyone should be suspended after this its Ashley young. What a disgrace and poor example to children, most manure fans to their credit seem to be ashamed by it.
|
|
|
Post by klr on Apr 9, 2012 9:31:17 GMT
For me the issue is really about the red card, something about it really doesnt sit right with me.
There was something a little bit "forced" about the way Mason was so eager to send off QPR's captain at the first available opportunity, then 5 minutes later there was a bad foul on a QPR player, a very clear yellow card offence & the Manchester United was not booked.
You have to call the integrity of the officials in to question, when its this bad, you just cant take it seriously anymore, questions need to be asked, but same every year, when there is too much money to be made, things get brushed under the carpet, same sh!t, different year.
|
|
|
Post by RoryTheRanger on Apr 9, 2012 9:39:08 GMT
All Derry did was put his open hand on Young's back. There was no pulling, maybe a small push but not even close to sending an adult human to the floor like that.
|
|
|
Post by jjqpr on Apr 9, 2012 9:39:33 GMT
What I want to know is, is there ANY chance of that ref and linesmen coming out with a public apology to us or the club?? Does it ever happen?
|
|
|
Post by klr on Apr 9, 2012 9:41:37 GMT
What I want to know is, is there ANY chance of that ref and linesmen coming out with a public apology to us or the club?? Does it ever happen? What do you think ?
|
|
|
Post by gramps on Apr 9, 2012 9:45:21 GMT
What I want to know is, is there ANY chance of that ref and linesmen coming out with a public apology to us or the club?? Does it ever happen? Not a cat in hell's chance, mate. Would like to think, though, that there is a chance the FA will demote him and the offending lino. Can they penalise Young in any way after the event? I have a feeling there is a provision for them to do that but again I say, at risk of being boring ..................... this is Manure!
|
|
|
Post by Marc on Apr 9, 2012 9:46:01 GMT
I think a straight red is 3 games, regardless of whether it's violent or not. As for Derry making "the slightest of tugs" his had was outstretched and only his fingertips touched Young's shirt. I doubt if he even felt it, I get the feeling he was planning to go down from the off.
As for the red card. The rules says it has to be denying a goal scoring opportunity. If Young was offside, it wasn't a goal scoring opportunity but I suppose that's down to interpretation.
I think they only extend the ban if it's obvious that it's a futile appeal done for the sake of it. I don't think it would apply in this case as the obvious offside id a big enough doubt in itself. That and they didn't do it when we appealed Barton's sending off against Norwich.
|
|
|
Post by mikehunt on Apr 9, 2012 10:01:15 GMT
ive watched it so many times, you can see youngs shirt come away from his body as he does his tom daley. watch it again. you are not allowed to put youre hands on another player in the box (even though its sometimes a natural instinct), especially not the biggest diver in the prem.
|
|
|
Post by blueeyedcptcook on Apr 9, 2012 10:12:01 GMT
|
|
|
Post by samp99 on Apr 9, 2012 10:24:43 GMT
Was watching MOTD2 last night, and in the Arse-City game afterwards there was an incident in the box where Vermalen had a grip round a City player, both fell to the ground, but for some reason nothing was given. NO CONSISTENCY! As for the suspension, I don't see it being overruled on the basis that it was offside. Only if they decide he wasn't denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity (unlikely) or if he wasn't pushed (more likely, but still don't see it happening unfortunately)
|
|
|
Post by terryb on Apr 9, 2012 10:30:53 GMT
Forget the offside bit, that was clear on the film But even if offside, if Derry DID push/trip him, couldnt that still be a penalty? (Forget whether he did, but IF he did)? And ditto, the same query re sending off: Even if offside, ref can send someone off if he did something? And if we appeal (as we are) and we lose? Does the one match suspension become two? 1) Young was offside first so even if he was foulded the correct decision is a free kick to Rangers. The same as if both players foul each other, the first foul is the one that should be punished. 2) Young was offside but if he had been fouled recklessly or violently the correct decision would have been a free kick to Rangers & a sending off for the player who committed the foul. 3) The suspension for being sent off as the last man is one match. If this is appealed & the FA regard the appeal as frivolous it can be increased to two matches. Personally I would expect us to lose the appeal as otherwise it would be a public statement that Mason was inept & that Young cheated. However, I can't believe that even our FA would have the audacity to increase the suspension. That would only lay themselves open to further charges of having no understanding of the game! How long will it be before Mason has to buy his own drink in the pubs in the town where he lives?
|
|
|
Post by mikehunt on Apr 9, 2012 10:36:55 GMT
the fa cant rewind the match and say you are not sent off for a foul cos the payer was offside when the referee has not given that offiside. all talk of it being offside so he shouldnt of been sent off and it shouldnt of been a pen are futile and totally irrelevant. forget the offside, it was missed by the officials and no amount of tv proof will EVER change the missed decision. did the tv get clint hills goal at bolton awarded the week after? and derry touched him and he went down, so by the letter of the law it was a foul, no matter how soft it was, and will not be over ruled imho.
|
|
|
Post by saphilip on Apr 9, 2012 10:37:08 GMT
Becasue it wasn't a red for violent conduct or fordissent it should only be a one match ban. Normally the FA wouldn't overrule these decisions as it would admit that the ref got it wrong (a no no as far as the FA is concerned) and it wa salso in Utd's favour (again the FA see nothing wrong with that). However in this case I think we may have a chance - not abig one but a chance.
You see this is hot on the heels of a very bad decision less than 24 hours earlier, where again the smaller team got the wrong end of a poor decision, and less than 2 weeks after a very poor decision that ended up in Utd's favour. The FA hate a pattern and when even former Utd greats insist that it was a poor decision then even the FA might have to put up its hands and accept that the red should be rescinded.
In addition while stopping the game doesn't necessarily mean the ref won't issue a red for violent conduct or fighting (and I have seen that happen before) in this case the offside precludes the so called penalty, so if the linesman had signalled the offside the ref would not have been able to award the penalty and the red - as that came as a resul fo the offside situation.
So I thnik we have a good chance, but not a strong one, of having the red overturned - certainly better than if this had happened 3 or 4 months earlier.
|
|
|
Post by gramps on Apr 9, 2012 10:39:01 GMT
Forget the offside bit, that was clear on the film But even if offside, if Derry DID push/trip him, couldnt that still be a penalty? (Forget whether he did, but IF he did)? And ditto, the same query re sending off: Even if offside, ref can send someone off if he did something? And if we appeal (as we are) and we lose? Does the one match suspension become two? 1) Young was offside first so even if he was foulded the correct decision is a free kick to Rangers. The same as if both players foul each other, the first foul is the one that should be punished. 2) Young was offside but if he had been fouled recklessly or violently the correct decision would have been a free kick to Rangers & a sending off for the player who committed the foul. 3) The suspension for being sent off as the last man is one match. If this is appealed & the FA regard the appeal as frivolous it can be increased to two matches. Personally I would expect us to lose the appeal as otherwise it would be a public statement that Mason was inept & that Young cheated. However, I can't believe that even our FA would have the audacity to increase the suspension. That would only lay themselves open to further charges of having no understanding of the game! How long will it be before Mason has to buy his own drink in the pubs in the town where he lives? OK, but let's look at this in the cold light of day. The whole of the footballing world knows that Young was offside but the lino and referee had decided by implication that he was not offside - end of! Therefore the offside argument cannot come into the equation and it has to be considered solely on the penalty box incident.
|
|
|
Post by RoryTheRanger on Apr 9, 2012 10:47:44 GMT
Derry did not stop a goal scoring opportunity. Young might not have even got to the ball, Kenny might have got to it before him. He lightly touched him in the back with an open hand,no shirt pulling. That doesn't explain why Young went down so quickly. Also for all we know the linesman may have known he was offside but the ref had already pulled the red card out before he could react.
|
|
|
Post by mikehunt on Apr 9, 2012 10:50:08 GMT
if thats all true, derry will get off then.
|
|
|
Post by terryb on Apr 9, 2012 10:52:15 GMT
I agree Gramps, that is why I stated that I didn't think they would uphold our appeal as that would admit the officials ineptness.
Although Mason will never admit publically that he "erred" he will have a difficult job defending his decision at the Premier Referees Meeting that analyies every performance & dceision.
It's incredible that when they go to all that trouble to get it right they fail so abysmally!
|
|
|
Post by grenqpr on Apr 9, 2012 11:05:29 GMT
Having expected QPR to lose this game I was only upset with the manner in which we lost but pleased the team worked hard to minimise the damage. The offside was so obvious the even Fergie saw it AND admitted it so it was even more astonishing that both Referee and assistant, who was seen to be in excellent positions, failed to see and act on the offside. To compound the error, the Ref's indecent haste to reach for his red card makes me wonder what offence he saw Derry commit. Certainly there was no foot contact, there was a tug of Young's shirt, resulting in a performance which would have earned 10 points from the Russian judge. I am more optimistic about our survival now...but not much. Our luck must change
|
|
|
Post by alfaranger on Apr 9, 2012 11:30:59 GMT
Having expected QPR to lose this game I was only upset with the manner in which we lost but pleased the team worked hard to minimise the damage. The offside was so obvious the even Fergie saw it AND admitted it so it was even more astonishing that both Referee and assistant, who was seen to be in excellent positions, failed to see and act on the offside. To compound the error, the Ref's indecent haste to reach for his red card makes me wonder what offence he saw Derry commit. Certainly there was no foot contact, there was a tug of Young's shirt, resulting in a performance which would have earned 10 points from the Russian judge. I am more optimistic about our survival now...but not much. Our luck must change I didnt think it was a 'tug', more of a fending off I thought - may be wrong, but, if that is the case check back on the corners especially with Rio wrapping his arms completely round our players. Surely that counts as more obstructive than Derrys light touch and being in the penalty area shouldnt it carry the same penalty?
|
|
|
Post by alfaranger on Apr 9, 2012 11:39:16 GMT
For me the issue is really about the red card, something about it really doesnt sit right with me. There was something a little bit "forced" about the way Mason was so eager to send off QPR's captain at the first available opportunity, then 5 minutes later there was a bad foul on a QPR player, a very clear yellow card offence & the Manchester United was not booked. You have to call the integrity of the officials in to question, when its this bad, you just cant take it seriously anymore, questions need to be asked, but same every year, when there is too much money to be made, things get brushed under the carpet, same sh!t, different year. Wasn't that Rafael klr? He seemed to have the hump and was dishing it out a bit. Four infringements which could easily have been yellows but nothing given. It DOES make me wonder even if I am not a conspiracy theorist-which I aint.
|
|
|
Post by Macmoish on Apr 9, 2012 11:54:04 GMT
If it's a three match suspension, worth appealing - even if it's a gamble/risk going up to four. If were only one match, might not be worth appealing if were good chance of being raised
|
|
|
Post by mikehunt on Apr 9, 2012 12:04:52 GMT
its deffo a one.
|
|
|
Post by gramps on Apr 9, 2012 12:05:29 GMT
Would be interesting to know if Young is on Twitter and, if so, what sort of messages he has been getting.
|
|
|
Post by samp99 on Apr 9, 2012 16:18:55 GMT
Derry did not stop a goal scoring opportunity. Young might not have even got to the ball, Kenny might have got to it before him. He lightly touched him in the back with an open hand,no shirt pulling. That doesn't explain why Young went down so quickly. Also for all we know the linesman may have known he was offside but the ref had already pulled the red card out before he could react. But he didn't flag or try to get the referee's attention at any stage, so you must assume he thought Young was offside. It must be said that no QPR player seemed to be appealing for the ref to talk to the linesman about him being off, rather about the lack of foul on Young
|
|