Post by Macmoish on Apr 21, 2011 6:55:03 GMT
Edit: Bump..6 Years ago
Originally posted , on Indys (and if you go back to this board there were some comments here and some other board)
AKUTRS - APRIL 2010
PIPERS AT THE GATES OF DAWN : the fundamental difference between views expressed in print and on-line is that only the latter can be done with a degree of anonymity. For the most part, thats not an issue. But as Cos Ataliotis reflects, sometimes it can be.........
The internet can be a wonderful thing where football is concerned. It offers easy access to the views and opinions of fans, coupled with plenty of unofficial information, and it has changed the way we as football supporters hear about our club and how we perceive it.
We know infinitely more than we ever did about those who play for us and the individuals who occupy the Boardroom. And there is no end to the amount of rumours ; allegations about who is drinking in the small hours, players about to sign for or leave the club, and players and Boardroom members sleeping with whomever. Its all there in football messageboards.
For many people, like me, who never post on these forums, it can be quite enjoyable to sit down for an hour or two every week and read what is being said. There's plenty of humour, and when it is an honest exchange of views, no matter how forthright, it can usually only add to our thoughts, opinions and knowledge.
However, as long-time readers of this publication know only too well, messageboards have also their nasty side, when things not only get personal, but attacks are deliberately designed in what appear to be suspiciously co-ordinated response to smear individual supporters, who may have imparted sensitive information, or may be proving -for one reason or another - a thorn in the side of individuals within a football club. These attacks are not new.
The editor, Dave Thomas, was one of the first people to receive this type of messageboard attention some 10 years ago or so ago. I won't go into all the details again, but those who were attacking him were eventually identified as employees of the club at the time, one of them on the clubs Board Of Directors. Dave was not unfamiliar with intimidation and veiled threats by the club, although this attack via the internet was particularly difficult for him to cope with. He had been called in by the club just after launching the first issue of AKUTR's and warned against continuing with the publication. That was back in 1987.
Later on, in sustained attacks in the early days of the internet, he was subjected to all kinds of slurs, a lot of them surrounding his apparent almost 'millionaire' status from selling this magazine !
Some supporters, it seems, really did believe that Dave had become wealthy on the back of publishing AKUTR's and although as anybody who has got to know is aware, it was clearly nonsense, perhaps that was one of the first signs of just how powerful and influential a sustained campaign on football messageboards could be.
LEGAL ACTION
Those controlling the club have normally used more conventional methods to attack supporters who are not willing to happily agree and comply with everything they say and do. Banning orders have not unusual for those who have embarrassed those in charge or got abusive towards them, and several years ago the club shamefully threatened legal actions against supporters who tried to publically expose some details of the ABC loan when it was first taken out.
But the activities and incidents which have taken place in the last few years on the different messageboards associated with our club has taken things to a new level. These activities coincided with the arrival of Paladini and the Monaco consortiums. When stories began appearing on websites citing concerns from long-time respected supporters about behaviours and actions within the club, some new 'supporters' began appearing from nowhere to counteract these allegations.
Nobody had ever heard of these new posters before, but there they were, and they had very strong opinions. Who could doubt their credentials?
Just like Paladini had boasted a glorious professional football career -I mean, who can forget his games for Napoli and Juventus, not to mention his Italian International appearances (Stop it Cos ! My ribs are cracking and the NHS is under enough strain as it is!) -so these new internet posters told us of how they had supported the club all their lives. These 'supporters' had been 'lifelong fans' who had suddenly rediscovered the club after a 'break' .At least, that was their story.
And who could doubt them? After al,l they had seen all the Queens Park Rangers greats : Richard Marsh, Sidney Bowles, Stevie Stainrod...and they seemed to have a fine knowledge of Boardroom politics; there was nothing they didn't know about the XYZ loan. And so it went on.
It just so happened that this very small handful of new arrivals to the Queens Park Rangers messageboards all had one thing in common. They posted an unyielding gargantuan love for all things Gianni Paladini. Any and every decision taken by Paladini was applauded. And any statement made by Paladini was considered by these new posters as being a thing of beauty; not just beautiful, it was incontrovertible fact.
TEMERITY
Anybody amongst our fan-base who had the temerity to criticise any decision, action or statement taken by Paladini and the Monaco consortiums, or post negative rumours about the way the club was run was immediately set upon and challenged. It wasn't just that rumours about incompetence, cash-flow problems and the release of long-serving club employees were being challenged by these posters as nonsense, it was the individual integrity of long-time respected supporters who dared to post these allegations or challenge these decisions which was being attacked.
And once the attacks and smears against supporters were placed, the posters didn't hang around too long to get involved in debates. Any awkward questions put in their direction would see them disappear, refuse to answer or find another distraction to deflect criticism.
There are many moments in the last six years when the activities of these people have plumbed new depths, and levels of vilification towards certain supporters have gone off the Richter scale. But perhaps the moment when the sheer scale of internet manipulation became visible in all its glory and some of those behind it, came in the summer of 2006.
It followed probably the most shambolic pre-season tour in the football clubs history.
The Italian pre-season tour was much heralded by the club and certain people on the internet messageboards. Despite this, matches were cancelled and switched at short notice, and the players pitches were very poor, which resulted in several of the training staff taking the place of players during matches in order to protect them. If only I could remember the name of the individual who had taken two 'jollys' out to Italy to arrange it all.
The players returned from Italy, but at the beginning of the final week before the season started, the players were prevented from training due to unpaid training ground bills. As Dave Thomas finally revealed in Issue 225 and then in more detail during Issue 240, we knew this had happened because Dave had personally visited the training ground that mid-morning, as a result of finding himself in the London area, and was in a position to do so after receiving very reliable information as to what was going on that morning.
Dave wasn't the only one to know what was going on. Many other respected and trusted supporters had received messages from similar unimpeachable sources telling them what had happened.
Soon the internet was buzzing, and everyone knew what was going on. Except that supporters couldn't be sure. Our new 'friends' soon flooded the internet telling everybody that statements regarding the training ground closure were all untrue; the training ground had remained open as normal. Some of them said the players had trained normally, others said that they had been given the day off and that it was just the 'usual suspects' trying to undermine Paladini, the Monaco consortiums and the club.
It certainly created confusion and mistrust amongst supporters, and these individuals weren't afraid to do anything to support their 'official' version of events, insulting the credibility and loyalty of anybody who suggested an alternative explanation.
They were prepared to engage in endless debates, jumping from one messagebaord to another to deny what supporters were telling them ,and they weren't afraid to use other known supporters in different ways to confirm their version of events. The club even wheeled out a version of events from the kit manager at the time to verify the account. Many good supporters believed the club, and our new 'friends'.
The debates rumbled on for a few weeks, and the level of vitriol reached unprecedented levels in certain areas. When the now 'infamous' or 'legendary' (take your pick) edition of Issue 198 of AKUTR's was published, Dave Thomas wrote an editorial in which he stated that we knew that that players had been prevented from training because 'AKUTR's was there'.
Dave's editorial was alongside anumber of articles I wrote for that particular edition. I suggested, amongst other things, that far from Paladinis assertion that the club would break-even or make a profit, we would be making even bigger losses. I explained that both myself and Dave Thomas had received information that a number of suppliers and other clubs had not been paid money they were owed. I also questioned some of Paladinis signings (not for the first time) and suggested that people were enjoying company cars at the expense of the club. Well, I do write a lot of rubbish. I mean, there has never been any evidence to support anything I have written since then?
By now, the self-righteous indignation on behalf of Paladini by these posters was full to overflowing, and myself, Dave Thomas and the magazine and any supporters who tried to defend us came in for relentless attacks. It was interesting for those of us connected with this magazine, and supporters who knew what we knew, to watch it all. I came under attack through the messageboards because of those articles ,and I was also wrongly associated with having written the editorial about the training ground.
Actually, I had barely mentioned the incident, apart from fleetingly in one sentence ( although I would have been proud to have written it), but the fact that people jumped on the bandwagon of what those people were saying and assumed it was true demonstrated that it wasn't all that difficult for them to sway opinion, particularly if they could find any type of veneer that would give them credibility. The whole incident epitomised the relentless spin which has characterised the last six years.
REALISATION
It's taken a long time for our fans to finally appreciate what has been going on via the internet, and its really only since the events surrounding Paulo Sousas departure that the full extent of the issues surrounding activities on messageboards have become visible to many supporters and the motivation behind them. The spin hasn't stopped though, it still remains in full flow, and I suspect it will continue to impact adversely on our supporters to varying degrees, but the increasing realisation amongst many of what lies behind it appears to be increasingly marginalising those who are continuing to indulge in it, and that can only be a good thing for our fan-base as a whole.
As Dave Thomas indicated in his articles, Marc Bircham has since confirmed that the training ground was closed to the players in August 2006. And in Ian Holloways auto-biography, on pages 159 and 160, he confirms a rumour that several supporters had heard months before this incident, that the groundsman was asking players to 'empty their lockers and be out in two days because you havn't paid your bills'.
But why would you want to believe Marc Bircham? Or Ian Holloway? And why would you want to believe Dave Thomas? Least of all, why would you want to listen to anything I have to say? This must all be rubbish and lies. After all, you had Paladinis word, and the assurances of his 'admirers'.
There is only one way to finish talking about this episode, and that is to leave you, with an extract from Paladinis now legendary interview which appeared in the Sunday Mirror on 6th August 2006 regarding the training ground. I think it speaks for itself.
August6,2006 Sunday Mirror
LIVING IN FEAR
Contract killer threat forces QPR chairman to wear a bullet-proof vest GIANNI PALADINI EXCLUSIVE- Anthony Clavane
" I feel like a dartboard. People are always throwing darts at me. We have an enemy within.What kind of people do these things? How can you be a QPR fan when you put this s**t in? Paladini also suspected foul play when one newspaper reported last week that Rangers players were turned away from their training ground because the rent had not been paid.
He blasted " This did not happen. I have a statement showing we paid Imperial College, who we rent the ground from, £32,250 on 18 July. How can they shut it for non-payment two weeks after paying the rent? Its insane. There were people from a QPR fan group outside the training ground at 7.20a.m, putting it out that the players had been locked out. But people were asleep at that time.The palyers didn't go in until 10am. They put out so much s**t, so much rubbish, that I just give up ".
www.indyrs.co.uk/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9906
Originally on Indys -http://www.indyrs.co.uk/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9906
Originally posted , on Indys (and if you go back to this board there were some comments here and some other board)
AKUTRS - APRIL 2010
PIPERS AT THE GATES OF DAWN : the fundamental difference between views expressed in print and on-line is that only the latter can be done with a degree of anonymity. For the most part, thats not an issue. But as Cos Ataliotis reflects, sometimes it can be.........
The internet can be a wonderful thing where football is concerned. It offers easy access to the views and opinions of fans, coupled with plenty of unofficial information, and it has changed the way we as football supporters hear about our club and how we perceive it.
We know infinitely more than we ever did about those who play for us and the individuals who occupy the Boardroom. And there is no end to the amount of rumours ; allegations about who is drinking in the small hours, players about to sign for or leave the club, and players and Boardroom members sleeping with whomever. Its all there in football messageboards.
For many people, like me, who never post on these forums, it can be quite enjoyable to sit down for an hour or two every week and read what is being said. There's plenty of humour, and when it is an honest exchange of views, no matter how forthright, it can usually only add to our thoughts, opinions and knowledge.
However, as long-time readers of this publication know only too well, messageboards have also their nasty side, when things not only get personal, but attacks are deliberately designed in what appear to be suspiciously co-ordinated response to smear individual supporters, who may have imparted sensitive information, or may be proving -for one reason or another - a thorn in the side of individuals within a football club. These attacks are not new.
The editor, Dave Thomas, was one of the first people to receive this type of messageboard attention some 10 years ago or so ago. I won't go into all the details again, but those who were attacking him were eventually identified as employees of the club at the time, one of them on the clubs Board Of Directors. Dave was not unfamiliar with intimidation and veiled threats by the club, although this attack via the internet was particularly difficult for him to cope with. He had been called in by the club just after launching the first issue of AKUTR's and warned against continuing with the publication. That was back in 1987.
Later on, in sustained attacks in the early days of the internet, he was subjected to all kinds of slurs, a lot of them surrounding his apparent almost 'millionaire' status from selling this magazine !
Some supporters, it seems, really did believe that Dave had become wealthy on the back of publishing AKUTR's and although as anybody who has got to know is aware, it was clearly nonsense, perhaps that was one of the first signs of just how powerful and influential a sustained campaign on football messageboards could be.
LEGAL ACTION
Those controlling the club have normally used more conventional methods to attack supporters who are not willing to happily agree and comply with everything they say and do. Banning orders have not unusual for those who have embarrassed those in charge or got abusive towards them, and several years ago the club shamefully threatened legal actions against supporters who tried to publically expose some details of the ABC loan when it was first taken out.
But the activities and incidents which have taken place in the last few years on the different messageboards associated with our club has taken things to a new level. These activities coincided with the arrival of Paladini and the Monaco consortiums. When stories began appearing on websites citing concerns from long-time respected supporters about behaviours and actions within the club, some new 'supporters' began appearing from nowhere to counteract these allegations.
Nobody had ever heard of these new posters before, but there they were, and they had very strong opinions. Who could doubt their credentials?
Just like Paladini had boasted a glorious professional football career -I mean, who can forget his games for Napoli and Juventus, not to mention his Italian International appearances (Stop it Cos ! My ribs are cracking and the NHS is under enough strain as it is!) -so these new internet posters told us of how they had supported the club all their lives. These 'supporters' had been 'lifelong fans' who had suddenly rediscovered the club after a 'break' .At least, that was their story.
And who could doubt them? After al,l they had seen all the Queens Park Rangers greats : Richard Marsh, Sidney Bowles, Stevie Stainrod...and they seemed to have a fine knowledge of Boardroom politics; there was nothing they didn't know about the XYZ loan. And so it went on.
It just so happened that this very small handful of new arrivals to the Queens Park Rangers messageboards all had one thing in common. They posted an unyielding gargantuan love for all things Gianni Paladini. Any and every decision taken by Paladini was applauded. And any statement made by Paladini was considered by these new posters as being a thing of beauty; not just beautiful, it was incontrovertible fact.
TEMERITY
Anybody amongst our fan-base who had the temerity to criticise any decision, action or statement taken by Paladini and the Monaco consortiums, or post negative rumours about the way the club was run was immediately set upon and challenged. It wasn't just that rumours about incompetence, cash-flow problems and the release of long-serving club employees were being challenged by these posters as nonsense, it was the individual integrity of long-time respected supporters who dared to post these allegations or challenge these decisions which was being attacked.
And once the attacks and smears against supporters were placed, the posters didn't hang around too long to get involved in debates. Any awkward questions put in their direction would see them disappear, refuse to answer or find another distraction to deflect criticism.
There are many moments in the last six years when the activities of these people have plumbed new depths, and levels of vilification towards certain supporters have gone off the Richter scale. But perhaps the moment when the sheer scale of internet manipulation became visible in all its glory and some of those behind it, came in the summer of 2006.
It followed probably the most shambolic pre-season tour in the football clubs history.
The Italian pre-season tour was much heralded by the club and certain people on the internet messageboards. Despite this, matches were cancelled and switched at short notice, and the players pitches were very poor, which resulted in several of the training staff taking the place of players during matches in order to protect them. If only I could remember the name of the individual who had taken two 'jollys' out to Italy to arrange it all.
The players returned from Italy, but at the beginning of the final week before the season started, the players were prevented from training due to unpaid training ground bills. As Dave Thomas finally revealed in Issue 225 and then in more detail during Issue 240, we knew this had happened because Dave had personally visited the training ground that mid-morning, as a result of finding himself in the London area, and was in a position to do so after receiving very reliable information as to what was going on that morning.
Dave wasn't the only one to know what was going on. Many other respected and trusted supporters had received messages from similar unimpeachable sources telling them what had happened.
Soon the internet was buzzing, and everyone knew what was going on. Except that supporters couldn't be sure. Our new 'friends' soon flooded the internet telling everybody that statements regarding the training ground closure were all untrue; the training ground had remained open as normal. Some of them said the players had trained normally, others said that they had been given the day off and that it was just the 'usual suspects' trying to undermine Paladini, the Monaco consortiums and the club.
It certainly created confusion and mistrust amongst supporters, and these individuals weren't afraid to do anything to support their 'official' version of events, insulting the credibility and loyalty of anybody who suggested an alternative explanation.
They were prepared to engage in endless debates, jumping from one messagebaord to another to deny what supporters were telling them ,and they weren't afraid to use other known supporters in different ways to confirm their version of events. The club even wheeled out a version of events from the kit manager at the time to verify the account. Many good supporters believed the club, and our new 'friends'.
The debates rumbled on for a few weeks, and the level of vitriol reached unprecedented levels in certain areas. When the now 'infamous' or 'legendary' (take your pick) edition of Issue 198 of AKUTR's was published, Dave Thomas wrote an editorial in which he stated that we knew that that players had been prevented from training because 'AKUTR's was there'.
Dave's editorial was alongside anumber of articles I wrote for that particular edition. I suggested, amongst other things, that far from Paladinis assertion that the club would break-even or make a profit, we would be making even bigger losses. I explained that both myself and Dave Thomas had received information that a number of suppliers and other clubs had not been paid money they were owed. I also questioned some of Paladinis signings (not for the first time) and suggested that people were enjoying company cars at the expense of the club. Well, I do write a lot of rubbish. I mean, there has never been any evidence to support anything I have written since then?
By now, the self-righteous indignation on behalf of Paladini by these posters was full to overflowing, and myself, Dave Thomas and the magazine and any supporters who tried to defend us came in for relentless attacks. It was interesting for those of us connected with this magazine, and supporters who knew what we knew, to watch it all. I came under attack through the messageboards because of those articles ,and I was also wrongly associated with having written the editorial about the training ground.
Actually, I had barely mentioned the incident, apart from fleetingly in one sentence ( although I would have been proud to have written it), but the fact that people jumped on the bandwagon of what those people were saying and assumed it was true demonstrated that it wasn't all that difficult for them to sway opinion, particularly if they could find any type of veneer that would give them credibility. The whole incident epitomised the relentless spin which has characterised the last six years.
REALISATION
It's taken a long time for our fans to finally appreciate what has been going on via the internet, and its really only since the events surrounding Paulo Sousas departure that the full extent of the issues surrounding activities on messageboards have become visible to many supporters and the motivation behind them. The spin hasn't stopped though, it still remains in full flow, and I suspect it will continue to impact adversely on our supporters to varying degrees, but the increasing realisation amongst many of what lies behind it appears to be increasingly marginalising those who are continuing to indulge in it, and that can only be a good thing for our fan-base as a whole.
As Dave Thomas indicated in his articles, Marc Bircham has since confirmed that the training ground was closed to the players in August 2006. And in Ian Holloways auto-biography, on pages 159 and 160, he confirms a rumour that several supporters had heard months before this incident, that the groundsman was asking players to 'empty their lockers and be out in two days because you havn't paid your bills'.
But why would you want to believe Marc Bircham? Or Ian Holloway? And why would you want to believe Dave Thomas? Least of all, why would you want to listen to anything I have to say? This must all be rubbish and lies. After all, you had Paladinis word, and the assurances of his 'admirers'.
There is only one way to finish talking about this episode, and that is to leave you, with an extract from Paladinis now legendary interview which appeared in the Sunday Mirror on 6th August 2006 regarding the training ground. I think it speaks for itself.
August6,2006 Sunday Mirror
LIVING IN FEAR
Contract killer threat forces QPR chairman to wear a bullet-proof vest GIANNI PALADINI EXCLUSIVE- Anthony Clavane
" I feel like a dartboard. People are always throwing darts at me. We have an enemy within.What kind of people do these things? How can you be a QPR fan when you put this s**t in? Paladini also suspected foul play when one newspaper reported last week that Rangers players were turned away from their training ground because the rent had not been paid.
He blasted " This did not happen. I have a statement showing we paid Imperial College, who we rent the ground from, £32,250 on 18 July. How can they shut it for non-payment two weeks after paying the rent? Its insane. There were people from a QPR fan group outside the training ground at 7.20a.m, putting it out that the players had been locked out. But people were asleep at that time.The palyers didn't go in until 10am. They put out so much s**t, so much rubbish, that I just give up ".
www.indyrs.co.uk/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9906
Originally on Indys -http://www.indyrs.co.uk/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9906
