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Post by sharky on Dec 21, 2019 15:03:33 GMT
Team for today
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Post by sharky on Dec 21, 2019 15:04:49 GMT
....and we're away. Nothing left to say but.......
COME ON URRRRRRRRssssssss!!!!!!!!
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Post by sharky on Dec 21, 2019 15:09:28 GMT
Bloody hell we're up already!
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Post by Marc on Dec 21, 2019 15:10:10 GMT
Come on, cheer me up in my hospital bed.we
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Post by terryb on Dec 21, 2019 15:11:44 GMT
Cameron!
I hope it's not too early.
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Post by terryb on Dec 21, 2019 15:14:04 GMT
Come on, cheer me up in my hospital bed.we I hope your not too bad marc & are home soon. I've not been able to go to Rangers since at home to Middlesbrough. Just another nervous 80 minutes to survive with Geoff Stelling!
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Post by Marc on Dec 21, 2019 15:56:06 GMT
Come on, cheer me up in my hospital bed.we I hope your not too bad marc & are home soon. I've not been able to go to Rangers since at home to Middlesbrough. Just another nervous 80 minutes to survive with Geoff Stelling! Thanks Terry. Just an infection, hoping to be home this evening
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Post by londonranger on Dec 21, 2019 16:12:53 GMT
Try to get a win for you Marc.
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Post by Marc on Dec 21, 2019 16:15:12 GMT
Try to get a win for you Marc. Thanks Harry
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Post by londonranger on Dec 21, 2019 16:22:06 GMT
O they tied it, sorry.Marc.
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Post by Marc on Dec 21, 2019 16:22:48 GMT
O they tied it, sorry.Marc. Boo!
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Post by Marc on Dec 21, 2019 16:28:43 GMT
Yay!
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Post by londonranger on Dec 21, 2019 16:30:56 GMT
We went ahead 71 mins is a win coming?
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Post by londonranger on Dec 21, 2019 16:46:01 GMT
Still ahead at 88mins. Our miserable defense has to hold them at bay.
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Post by londonranger on Dec 21, 2019 16:55:25 GMT
Bloody H. 5 mins togo they tie it, sorry Marc.
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Post by londonranger on Dec 21, 2019 16:57:47 GMT
Yuck, how can we not hold off Charlton 5 mins into overtime. Well at least we get a point.
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Post by bowranger on Dec 21, 2019 16:58:21 GMT
Someone buy the ref a working watch for xmas, please.
(Yes I know that's not the reason we drew. Was just on such a high after going 2-1 up and were playing so well. Gutted).
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Post by nomar on Dec 21, 2019 17:00:47 GMT
The usual gift giving by our ‘defence’ again.
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Post by harr on Dec 21, 2019 17:18:30 GMT
Yuck, how can we not hold off Charlton 5 mins into overtime. Well at least we get a point. Because we can’t defend for toffee and love to let in two goals a game. A point from two of the worse teams in the league is a dire return. Two wins in eleven.
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Post by bowranger on Dec 21, 2019 19:16:43 GMT
Weird, exciting match with a desperately gutting conclusion.
Minute to minute, our defence mostly had a good game. Leistner won most of his battles, Lumley made a couple of good saves and took some scary catches in his 6 yard box under pressure.
We were better in terms of mixing it up between playing it out from the back, and we had good moments where we sucked in Charlton trying to press and exposed the gaps. Of course, we also had more than a couple of moments where we mucked about too long and pur ourselves under pressure.
Sometimes we humped it and Hugill mostly came off better in a very physical battle with their CB. Some weird reffing of him, where he certainly gave as good as he got but seemed to get harsher calls as the game went on.
Likewise, the ref drew a clear line early and afforded protection to Eze, who got a kicking early in the game (and some clear two-handed shoves in the back), but that seemed to ease off later. Felt like Chair, when he came on, was victim to some rough treatment that could have been punished more.
Bright's work for the second goal had to be seen to be believed. Magic, possibly the most enjoyable goal to watch after Eze's at Stoke and BOS' goal at Brum.
Looking back, the pivotal moment was probably Wells' early miss. Misplaced pass from the Charlton defender, pounced on, clear through on goal with Eze arriving in support. Took too long and smashed it too close to the keeper. Charlton were allover the place at that point - memories of Fulham away recently where we could have easily put the game almost beyond doubt and didn't.
Unlike earlier in the season where teams got most of the joy down the left, Charlton got most joy out of Kane on the right. While we dealt with most of the balls that came in, that's where they got most of their sniffs of goal.
Amos had an odd one. Some neat passing, never hides from the ball and links up well. But still has the tendency to collect the ball and almost always look to go back rather than forwards.
I think the subs were correct. I'd have maybe done BOS for Wells at half time rather than later on, but nitpicking.
The end, then. First of all, I don't know where the ref got a minimum of 5 mins from. No idea. Unless my hearing is off, the PA seemed to say 4 minutes. I think the game should have been over by then and the ref got that massively wrong.
The level-headed reply is obviously that if you put the game to bed, you aren't risking losing two points. Also true. Both are true. One of those sliding door moments where we lost a crucial header (I think it was Cameron..?) and that created the gap.
We could and should have been three up by then. Ironically, it was not converting chances that did us in more than the defense over the 90 minutes. Asides from chances for Hugill and Wells, Charlton's keeper made two superb saves- one from a BOS rapper across goal and another from Eze, who hit it first time from outside the box and looked destined for the bottom corner. But obviously that doesn't fit the narrative we like to smack ourselves with.
So yeah, a game of massive highs and a massive low at the end and coming away disappointed with a point.
In perspective, we are 14th at Christmas. We are 13 points above the relegation zone and 5 points off the playoffs. I'd have been very happy with that if you asked me back in August and judging by our fans online a few months ago, likewise.
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Post by londonranger on Dec 21, 2019 20:13:10 GMT
Nice report Bow. thanks.
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Post by harr on Dec 21, 2019 20:53:53 GMT
Agree London good report. (We could and should have been three up by then. Ironically, it was not converting chances that did us in more than the defense over the 90 minutes)
But we still let in two goals though, so we are really saying we have to score three nearly every week to win as our average is conceding two. We seemed to burying more chances earlier in the season and now are missing a few yet still conceding sloppy goals, our wins our going out the window.
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Post by bowranger on Dec 21, 2019 21:55:40 GMT
Agree London good report. (We could and should have been three up by then. Ironically, it was not converting chances that did us in more than the defense over the 90 minutes) But we still let in two goals though, so we are really saying we have to score three nearly every week to win as our average is conceding two. We seemed to burying more chances earlier in the season and now are missing a few yet still conceding sloppy goals, our wins our going out the window. Don't think we are saying that (least I'm not), poor as the defence is. My point there is about timing and putting matches to bed when you have the chance to. It isn't saying that Charlton are always going to score two, I'm saying that in this game, you put two clear goals past that Charlton side when our tails are up, you aren't facing a situation where Charlton are ostensibly still in the game at half time, or 2-1 down in a London derby scrapping for a point in injury time. You see it every week at this level, players get tired, things happen in the last minute. Goals and when you score them change games and change momentum. With a low confidence defence versus a team fighting for survival with a good striker, a one goal deficit gives you something to fight for. You put two goals through them when they look ropey, like we should have done, they go in deflated at half time and the complexion of the game changes. Charlton had hope in injury time that we should have drained out of them at least half an hour before. For example, if BOS doesn't bang in that second goal at Brum, we could easily have ended up conceding last minute. Brum, scrapping, only need a goal to get a point. Instead, we put them down and their heads went down. Or in other words, crap defence or not, you don't punish teams when they are ripe for it, you leave the door ajar for them to creep back in. Edit: also, i'm talking specifically about today's game. There are other games where we've lost simply cos our defence was awful. The point today wasn't as straightforward as that.
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Post by harr on Dec 22, 2019 0:06:19 GMT
Agree London good report. (We could and should have been three up by then. Ironically, it was not converting chances that did us in more than the defense over the 90 minutes) But we still let in two goals though, so we are really saying we have to score three nearly every week to win as our average is conceding two. We seemed to burying more chances earlier in the season and now are missing a few yet still conceding sloppy goals, our wins our going out the window. Don't think we are saying that (least I'm not), poor as the defence is. My point there is about timing and putting matches to bed when you have the chance to. It isn't saying that Charlton are always going to score two, I'm saying that in this game, you put two clear goals past that Charlton side when our tails are up, you aren't facing a situation where Charlton are ostensibly still in the game at half time, or 2-1 down in a London derby scrapping for a point in injury time. You see it every week at this level, players get tired, things happen in the last minute. Goals and when you score them change games and change momentum. With a low confidence defence versus a team fighting for survival with a good striker, a one goal deficit gives you something to fight for. You put two goals through them when they look ropey, like we should have done, they go in deflated at half time and the complexion of the game changes. Charlton had hope in injury time that we should have drained out of them at least half an hour before. For example, if BOS doesn't bang in that second goal at Brum, we could easily have ended up conceding last minute. Brum, scrapping, only need a goal to get a point. Instead, we put them down and their heads went down. Or in other words, crap defence or not, you don't punish teams when they are ripe for it, you leave the door ajar for them to creep back in. Edit: also, i'm talking specifically about today's game. There are other games where we've lost simply cos our defence was awful. The point today wasn't as straightforward as that. Fair points. The point today was still down to a bit of poor defending though but we should have been further ahead like you say. Overall, really my single gripe with Mark Warburton he has not got the team defending well enough or if that’s a bit harsh,they have lapses of concentration far to regularly for my liking. However, if you said we would be about 12-13 th in the League half way through the season, I would have taken that.
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Post by bowranger on Dec 22, 2019 8:30:32 GMT
Don't think we are saying that (least I'm not), poor as the defence is. My point there is about timing and putting matches to bed when you have the chance to. It isn't saying that Charlton are always going to score two, I'm saying that in this game, you put two clear goals past that Charlton side when our tails are up, you aren't facing a situation where Charlton are ostensibly still in the game at half time, or 2-1 down in a London derby scrapping for a point in injury time. You see it every week at this level, players get tired, things happen in the last minute. Goals and when you score them change games and change momentum. With a low confidence defence versus a team fighting for survival with a good striker, a one goal deficit gives you something to fight for. You put two goals through them when they look ropey, like we should have done, they go in deflated at half time and the complexion of the game changes. Charlton had hope in injury time that we should have drained out of them at least half an hour before. For example, if BOS doesn't bang in that second goal at Brum, we could easily have ended up conceding last minute. Brum, scrapping, only need a goal to get a point. Instead, we put them down and their heads went down. Or in other words, crap defence or not, you don't punish teams when they are ripe for it, you leave the door ajar for them to creep back in. Edit: also, i'm talking specifically about today's game. There are other games where we've lost simply cos our defence was awful. The point today wasn't as straightforward as that. Fair points. The point today was still down to a bit of poor defending though but we should have been further ahead like you say. Overall, really my single gripe with Mark Warburton he has not got the team defending well enough or if that’s a bit harsh,they have lapses of concentration far to regularly for my liking. However, if you said we would be about 12-13 th in the League half way through the season, I would have taken that. The defence is a weird one. The only easy conclusion I can see is it being a work in progress, cos it's been so varied in how it's performed that it is hard to figure it out. The only clues I can see recently are the changes in style and approach after the Forest debacle. Every goal at Forest was piss poor defensively. Then at Fulham, we were better, but still religiously played ourselves into trouble by refusing to compromise and hack the ball up the pitch when we needed breathing room. Then three games in a row - Derby, Preston and Brum - we got the pragmatism we were crying out for. Still playing it out from the back, but not afraid to just boot it out of there when necessary. Six points out of nine and two clean sheets in games I didnt think we'd get much out of. Then Barnsley. God knows. The change in shape didn't help but did think it raised some alarm bells about Wallace again, who I think was also poor in the 2-2 with Boro. Then today...back to four at the back and broadly decent. I think Kane was probably poorest in that he struggled against Gallagher and Bonne, though was good going forward. The goal was partly down to a mistake and that was very frustrating, particularly as Cameron had had a decent game up to that point. Like I say though, things happen in the last minute when players are knackered and you're under the cosh - and they shouldn't have had a sniff if we had taken our ample chances earlier on. So after the rambling, back to the work in progress thing. I think even at our best, we are a pretty average defence at this level. Which is what I'd expect, money-wise. Like any average defence, you'll have days where we're simply crap. Like Forest. You've also got issues with youth, ability and form. Kane and Manning have both had great games and awful games. Lumley has been bang out of form, but has also swung back the other way - thought he was alright today. Leistner has had games where he's been immense - thought he was superb against Preston and was broadly alright today. Likewise, he was pap (like everyone) against Forest, and that first Fulham goal was defending 101 levels of bad. I think Preston, Derby away and to a lesser extent today, show that with a bit more pragmatism, we are better back there than we were. We'll still have nightmare days, but I think we will see less of them. It is a pretty average defense, half a season into a new system with new personnel and it shows.
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Post by Macmoish on Dec 22, 2019 9:13:19 GMT
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Post by rickyqpr on Dec 22, 2019 9:52:47 GMT
Opponents know that we are always good for a gift of a goal and that gives them hope. If we do not convert our chances then they can hang on in and ride their luck. Charlton and QPR are 2 teams who like to go forward but both have suspect defences. Bowyer quickly switched to a back 3 yesterday to stem the flow. QPR should have been out of sight. Giving away a goal with 11 seconds to go is both naive and unlucky. But it happens and it hurts. Cameron's failed header put it on a plate in the same way that their scorer had previously gifted Cameron a goal. One goal each, one mistake each. Charlton last Friday conceded late into injury time - so what goes around......... Charlton are a young naive team. In Conor Galagher they have one of the best Chelsea loanees out on the circuit. He is just 19 but a great prospect. he certainly knows how to buy a foul. I agree though with the comments above. Something is not right and we are very much a work in progress. I think though it comes down to consistency and concentration. Looking at our set up, we seem more comfortable with a back 4. But then that currently means playing Leistner on the left of Hall. At left back, Manning is a tad wasted in a back 4 and Wallace is yet to impress. Barbet can also play at left back, but his sustained absence has thwarted progress. Although had his share of 'accidents' with us, he is still the best we have playing the ball out from the back. At right back, Kane is either very good (especially going forward) or pretty suspect. Rangel is steady, but suffering injuries that come with age. Leistner is also inconsistent, sometime immense, sometimes hopelessly out of position. I don't think Leistner has found a partnership that he is entirely comfortable with. Hall is out of contract at the end of the season and one of our most expensive earners. Masterson is clearly one for the future. So I think that things may well change in the next window. It is possible that Leinster still wants to return to Germany. He nearly left in the last window but the McKenna deal fell through. Manning is yet to sign the extension and although we have an option of a further year, the club may decide to cash in now. Hamalianen is out of contract in the Summer, seems to be doing well at Kilmarnock, I guess he will either be extended or sold. Wallace (32) and Rangel (36) are likely to be cover at best. Both have missed a lot of football over the last 2 years. Would be surprised if they make the squad next season. Hall will either be extended on less money or off in the Summer. So, if the above is remotely accurate, we are some way off a settled defence. I think that is why we were prepared to bet the shop on Scott McKenna last window. It transpires though that our offer was pretty low and based on large add-ons. We are said to be interested again, but there would probably have to be some cash in-flow for QPR to be in the running for him. But if not McKenna, then I think there will be another young left sided central defender arriving. McKenna has apparently lost form and Aberdeen are saying he is not for sale but that they will have to take into consideration the view of the player though........so he is off! I think we are also looking at young right backs with an eye for next season. Warburton knows Barbet well and I think he sees him as playing on the left of a back three, or left back in a back four. Unless we get injuries, I think that he probably intends to go with Kane, Hall, Newbie and Barbet. As for not taking our chances, Hugnill scores the unlikely and leans back and misses the easier ones. Wells is a very big confidence player. I think he lets bad misses get inside his head. Last season he had such a bad second half and I truly hope that he is not heading that way again. I think the club would like to secure Wells on a permanent contract, but answers on a postcard about how much that would cost given he is out of contract in June with no January recall. So I wonder where we will be come 31/1/2020?
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Post by terryb on Dec 22, 2019 13:54:12 GMT
Thank you for the reports.
I've only seen the Sky highlights & read messagebord threads plus an observation from my son.
It appeared to me that there were two awful misses from Wells & I'm not sure which was worst! How he cleared the bar with his header was nearly as bad as when Hugill shot over from a yard earlier in the season. His seond chance he waited too long to shoot & by that time he should have squared the ball to Amos.
As far as the extra time went, it would seem that five minutes was always the added amount & the announcer got it wrong. Not that this should have impacted with us giving away the second goal. It comes as no surprise that the time was extended when the crowd throw away the ball as I'm told happened yeaterday. If that action takes thirty seconda a minimum of a minute will be added. Perhaps that shouldn't be the case, but it would definitely be my response as the referee & I believe it is for most officals!
However, we should have cleared the ball easily! Was Cameron at fault for attempting to head the ball while moving backwards, when Leistner could have headed it without needing to jump? Or wss Leistner at fault for not communicating with Cameron?
Either way, the result is a sickener!
I hope to return to the Bush for one of the Hull or Cardiff games (it would be good to feel up to going to both!) & I'm looking forward to not following us through Stelling, livescores & message boards!
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