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Post by rickyqpr on Aug 18, 2019 7:22:08 GMT
Watched the City Spurs game yesterday evening. It made me realize that especially in the Prem we watch the game in a different way now - much like the cricket - he's out, no hang on they are reviewing! 4 goals, all looked ok watching live, but now you wait for the review before mentally adjusting to the change of score. The 'goal' right at the death a case in point. City went mad celebrating the goal deep into injury time - it looked fine watching live - no suggestion of a review - commentator throwing out the platitudes of how City had done it as ever. But wait, there is a review - nearly a minute has passed - hand ball, goal disallowed! Spurs fans now singing ' VAR My Lord, VAR!' Gary Neville jokes that quite right because VAR has been their best player today. But this was as much about the change of hand ball rules as VAR. From this season, any handball that is in a build up to a goal renders the decision of no-goal. Even if totally accidental - as was this one - where it brushed a body on the cross to Jesus. Quite pleased that City dropped pointed even though they deserved to win, but this change of rule is pretty daft and has to be changed. Can only be detected with VAR, so will not impact as much at our level, but the game has changed again and not for the better IMHO
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Post by londonranger on Aug 18, 2019 15:13:30 GMT
Saw the same game and the enthusiasm when City had won. Then the ref did the VAR sign and it was a draw, as Ricky said goal disallowed. Dumbfounded. Though I happen to like Spurs, with Delle Ali, Son and Harry Kane.
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Post by terryb on Aug 18, 2019 17:54:21 GMT
It does seem wrong that the goal is disallowed but a penalty wouldn't be given if it had brushed the arm of a defender.
It also seems wrong to me that a defender is sent off for stopping a goal by handling the ball on the goal line (Suarez - world cup semi final), but an attacker is only cautioned when attempting to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball( Maradonna against england, Greaves against Rangers).
Yes, I know neither of those were cautioned as goals were given, but if a free kick ahd been given they wouldn't have been sent off!
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Post by stylecouncillor on Aug 19, 2019 6:36:55 GMT
Accidental Hand ball by a forward should be just that an accident. I suppose its hard to decide what is accidental and what is not so just give them all as handball. With the not for defenders I assume its to stop players just smashing the ball at defenders and appealing for a var review. All the recent rule changes take a lot of working out why … the penalty laws more nonsense no idea what is going on at goal kicks or the point.
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Post by Ashdown_Ranger on Aug 19, 2019 11:07:19 GMT
VAR decision for handball was right interpretation of a stupid law.
Hopefully the law will be changed.
Pleased City didn't get all three points though...
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Post by bowranger on Aug 19, 2019 18:43:50 GMT
VAR decision for handball was right interpretation of a stupid law. Hopefully the law will be changed. Pleased City didn't get all three points though... Yeah, agree. And more broadly, I just think human judgement is culturally a part of football. The rules have a lot of clear and obvious parts to it, but mistakes, individual judgment, even the personalities of refs to some extent are all a part of the fabric of the game to me. Personally, I'd rather have a sport where stuff like the handball in the City v Spurs game are missed than one where decisions are fussed and replayed over and over. Already seen how the frame rate can mean even VAR offside calls can't be 100% relied upon. Like, it is a long old discussion but the fundamental bit to me is that you go on the laws and you rely on the fact that refs are trained up and do the best they can. Sometimes they'll make mistakes, sometimes you get a ref who is finicky over contact and another who let's everything go - the frustrations and ambiguities of that is just a familiar part of the game for me. And I'd rather have a bit of inconsistency than this robotic obsession over minutiae.
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Post by Lonegunmen on Aug 20, 2019 10:42:31 GMT
Video Arsehole Referees
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Post by Lonegunmen on Aug 20, 2019 10:45:33 GMT
It has ruined the game. It ruined Rugby League, It will ruin Rugby Union and it is ruining football. Sadly, the same muppets whom screw up out on the pitch are also the same ones sitting behind 4 or more monitors and still screwing up.
I love goal line cameras to prove whether or not a ball crossed the goal line and that's where the technology should stop. Removing the "human factor" also removes the emotion and the fans are left with a shall we cheer/boo or not for the 4 minutes it takes and about 50 damn replays.
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Post by blatantfowl on Aug 20, 2019 15:13:33 GMT
I totally disagree with some of these sentiments.
VAR was desperately needed. If any one of us put on a black suit and tried that job we’d be crushed. If the average footie crowd didnt consist of at least a10% contingent of psychotic morons we might have had a chance of avoiding it but no, much better a short break to get the right decision. Wrong decisions no longer result in disappointment, exasperation and banter. It’s just vitriol now, pure hate.
So reducing ambiguity to those decisions is the only way. I’d rather lose knowing it was the right decision rather than feeling cheated, especially at international level where cheating changes destinies, creates heroes from cheats and leaves the true professionals with integrity as nobodies.
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Post by bowranger on Aug 20, 2019 17:39:34 GMT
I totally disagree with some of these sentiments. VAR was desperately needed. If any one of us put on a black suit and tried that job we’d be crushed. If the average footie crowd didnt consist of at least a10% contingent of psychotic morons we might have had a chance of avoiding it but no, much better a short break to get the right decision. Wrong decisions no longer result in disappointment, exasperation and banter. It’s just vitriol now, pure hate. So reducing ambiguity to those decisions is the only way. I’d rather lose knowing it was the right decision rather than feeling cheated, especially at international level where cheating changes destinies, creates heroes from cheats and leaves the true professionals with integrity as nobodies. I think of a lot of those factors are separate, though. For one, refs and officials still obviously get dogs abuse regardless of VAR decision making and if anything, that continues to permeate football in other ways. It isn't like Man City fans weren't fuming and abusive about the decision against Spurs - for every fan who is satisfied about a technically correct call, there is another angry that they've missed out because of what they perceive as a barely perceptible infraction. It doesn't make the latter person right, but it also doesn't mean they aren't going to be angry. As you say, refs have an incredibly hard job and while I disagree that more than 10% of football fans are psychotic, I agree that there is so much bile and vitriol out there. But that isn't a technological issue and I don't think that's so much down to ambiguity. Primarily, because I don't think our response to some people being arseholes is to hide behind refs being boxed off in a room somewhere else - that's a societal and fan culture issue. People having a lack of respect for officials shouldn't be solved by trying to work around it and removing the ref on the pitch from the equation, same way you shouldn't change a team selection because the crowd have taken against a particular player. And secondly, the key stuff fans spill bile about when it comes to refs are things that VAR doesn't touch - inconsistency, perceived bias, players taking liberties with time wasting, all sorts. Even at the City game last week, decisions which people around me got angry about were judgment calls which VAR wouldn't be involved with. The follow on from that is that it can have the opposite effect - it plants automatic doubt in the ref on the pitch. It officially puts into place a system that presupposes that refs will miss things and need to be checked up upon as players and fans alike know there is a 'higher power' who can overrule them. I lost count at how many refs I've seen recently, being shouted at by players, stadium all booing as they stand there pointing to their earpiece. So instead of instilling an ethos of refs being hard working people doing their best, it reinforces the idea that they're sub-par by comparison and I worry about where that ends up. Now it's offsides and major goal decisions. Do we then start to look at incorrect throw ins or corners or free kicks that then led to goals? People always find new ways to be fuming. I think that last part is the absolute crux of it though and that's probably the vital difference in opinion, really. As much as I can hate the outcomes, that is the essence of football to me. Mistakes happen, ambiguitity happens, debate can rage - as you say, sometimes, cheats prosper and sometimes the deserving don't get what they deserve. But purely personally, as long as those are the exceptions rather than the norm (particularly when they can retrospectively punished), it is a trade off I can live with. That is part of the drama of sport - though can understand why someone else may not feel that way. I just think a big part of it is symptomatic of how massive football is. The consequences between winning and losing are so much more gigantic now, to the point that drama, spectacle and ambiguity are less valued than things being totally, utterly correct every single time...if that makes sense.
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Post by blatantfowl on Aug 21, 2019 0:11:22 GMT
In my argument I am drawn to the biggest infractions which have massive implications. Maradona's hand, Lampards shot against the bar which crossed the line, Even Russian linesmen giving a goal in 66. These are historic moments and to say it’s ok for entire nations to spent the next 50 years cursing a wrong decision waters down the impact on the nations psyche, culture and personality. Very occasionally, even the player themselves wishes a correct decision within in the rules had been made. When Thierry Henry handled the ball to his advantage playing for France against Ireland, he knew almost immediately the implications of what he had done. A hero to the blindly patriotic France supporter but a cheat to every Irish or neutral.
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