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Post by Lonegunmen on Jun 16, 2010 13:38:40 GMT
So what have South Africa gained? Some decent stadiums, even those that have been upgraded, a train system that looks pretty good. Employment for the builders and the workers even if the pay is crap, it is a start.
But what will happoen after the WC? All those builders etc will have nothing to look forward to. It's a bit concerning. Perhaps Phil can give us the local perspective??
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Post by Zamoraaaah on Jun 16, 2010 14:01:20 GMT
I think/hope that tourism would dramatically increase after the World Cup.
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Post by saphilip on Jun 16, 2010 14:31:52 GMT
The Union issue - well our socialist friend can live here and he will very quickly get sick to death of the violence & miltancy that comes with the strikes. In some respects I feel sorry for those security guys because they are pawns in a middle of an ideological batttle between elements within the ANC. Make no mistake Cosatu had made it clear that they were planning action like this during the WC for no reason but to embarrass the nation as well as for some political brownie points.
The road system did need an urgent upgrade - particularly around the Greater Jo'burg / Pretoria region so that will be off some benefit to us in the long term. Port Elizabeth also needed an upgraded stadium so that was also fine. I'm not sure about the ones in Polokwane & Nelspruit though - I think those could be potential white elephants, particularly as neither region has a long established top flight football team or a Currie Cup rugby team to fall back on.
I suspect the future of Newlands Stadium in Cape Town is now rather short lived with the Stormers / Western province rugby team & Ajax CT & Santos football teams moving to the new Greenpoint stadium.
Gautrain was also badly needed although I don't think it will stretch far enough and hardly caters for the major urban areas of Gauteng Province.
So in many respects we have benefitted as far as long term projects are concerned. However those tasks are coming to an end, so contractors will need to look for other projects but that was always going to happen - and even if it was short to medium term projects it was better than nothing for those people.
What has been disappointing has been the FIFA handling of local affairs. I think once the FIFA WC circus has left the town for Brazil then a lot of local people here will assess the situation and will come to the same conclusion that I came to over a decade ago. That Honest Sepp and his hangers-on don't give a damn for anything but their own back pockets. Too many hospitality businesses burnt their fingers with FIFA's marketing arm, Match (owned by Honest Sepp's nephew), and were left high and dry when FIFA's totally overly optimistic tourist forecasts (they forecast well over 500k fans for these games) was finally brought down to earth by reality.
Their attitudes towards local business enterprises has been nothing short of disgraceful - and in some cases their reaction to the supposed "crime" has been totally out of proportion & over the top. We may have first world technology & businesses but we are essentially a 3rd world country - and I think a lot of local businesses have been let down & felt totally betrayed by Blatter's cronyism and now see the hollowness of FIFA's words.
Their ticketing policy was utter shambles and totally out of touch with your average SA soccer fan. The result is now seeing rows of empty seats at games that were supposed to have been sold out to the general public. Now of course FIFA are blaming us, the locals, for it - poor transport, no interest etc, etc, but never their freebies, hangers on and out of touch ticketing procedures.
Now for the vuvuzela issue. Are they noisy and distracting at times? Yes they are but they are also part and parcel of SA football. They have been around for at least 15 to 20 years in one form or another but for the whole nobody really took notice of them - until last year's Confed Cup. Then suddenly they came to the public's attention and all hell broke loose.
It was noticeable that the main critics came from Spain - and it was noticeable that their criticism became more shrill after the US shocked them in the semi-final of that tournament. Italy, who had a shocking Confeds Cup, also moaned about them. In short people were finding the perfect excuse for their poor performances - the vuvuzela.
Right now I am hearing complaints form various prima donnas about the vuvuzela, the ball and the altitude but all I see are excuses for possible poor results.
The truth is that SA football (in fact African football) has always been about colours and noise - and lots of it. The vuvuzela might be cheap, tuneless and made of plastic but it is also less than 2 Pounds and it is that fact why so many locals love it - because it is cheap and serves the purpose, i.e. making lots of noise. That's why so many overseas fans are buying them by the dozen as well.
I think most locals are so sick of FIFA's interfering that the vuvuzela has become a rallying cry down here. A case of "stuff the critics" and a warning to Honest Sepp of "don't even think about it mate - you have intefered far too much already, banning the vuvuzela will be the final straw".
I truly believe Blatter wants to ban them, but he also knows that if he does that then he will be finished as FIFA president and all the freebies that go with it.
Finally I have to add this - isn't the purpose of a World Cup just that, a chance to showpiuece the world? Surely the purpose is to showcase cultures and customs around the world and accept them and embrace them.
Obviously there are some aspects of culture that we can do without - slaughtering oxen in front of stadiums, bull fights, tomato throwing sessions & food eating competitions while the world starves for instance, but I don't think the vuvuzela falls under that category.
It is noticeable that among foreign fans most of the criticism is coming from those watching the games on TV at home in their own countries rather than those who are actually visiting the country. I think that tells its own little story.
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Post by Lonegunmen on Jun 16, 2010 15:16:18 GMT
I wouldn't use altitude as an excuse, a few countries were warming up in places like Austria to deal with that. I know our guys and England did.
Fifa and their interference is stuff of legends. We had it here for the U17 girls World Cup. simple thing like no caps allowed on plastic coke bottles in case someone threw one. So after the first day, everyone took their own caps and used them there after. Then there's the FIFA food menu which sadly was enforced here yet none of the food types were available because our crap catering couldn't be arsed doing it. corporate free laoding saw plenty of empty seats here too.
We've been getting fed those transport excuses down here Phil but our media is a bit more hardcore and did some digging. We are well aware of where the hold ups are. we have a few hundred fans over your place and they've been keeping us up to speed on a lot of it. Despite my criticisms of those friggen horns, the fans there are complimenting your country for a lot of good hospitality.
I mentioned the TVNZ news crew thing because to lose a hundred grands worth of gear from your securityy concious hotel room is alarming. but as you say, it is not a regular occurance.
The fans withing the grounds are a colourful bunch and its good to see so many countries have made an effort to be there. For me personally, I wonder what will happen after the WC hangover has gone. Perhaps extending that new rail system would keep some employed as well as continued upgrading of the roading system too.
Internationally SA does have an image problem with crime. It sadly is something only your politicians etc can address. This is something I hope they do because you have a tourist destination just begging to be utilised.
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Post by Macmoish on Jun 16, 2010 16:11:21 GMT
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obk
Dave Sexton
Posts: 1,516
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Post by obk on Jun 16, 2010 17:02:57 GMT
Fifa is a disgrace, no news there. How they treat local businesses we got a taste of in my little swedish town last year when we had the U21 European finals here. You're the one living there so you would be most qualified to tell us how the situation is. I often think Marx was right in his long term view on the development of capitalism, but probably very wrong on the conclusions of where this would take us. You can see the west sucking the life out of workers all over the world and using low wages in far off countries for their own wealth. The good thing about that though is that some of that money trickles down and at some point their will be a developed middle class and even som reforms for workers, in China for example there are some signs of this. But this is when production leaves that area to go hunt even cheaper places to produce, even in China some manufacturies are now being outsourced. Anyway, my point is, Afrcia has been exploited for a long while but is still very underdeveloped industrialization wise, and will be the last continent to which capitalist turns to produce goods. It will be interesting the day when Africa has been used like we today use, for instance, parts of Asia and the living standard rises there too (on a more general level). That is when all of us, even in the west, will have to start learning to share resources instead of just using others cheap work for our own well being.
Ah, that was a long and probably boring rant, and I still hate those vuvuzelas, but as long as they enjoy themselves more power to them.
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 16, 2010 17:16:57 GMT
Sweaties are moving to ban the vuvuzelas in scottish stadiums.
Hope the English football league do the same, kill em off b4 they can spread.
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Post by saphilip on Jun 16, 2010 17:44:54 GMT
OBK - I have lived on this continent for over 40 years and I can tell you one thing - communism does not work, certainly not in Africa. I don't think out and out capitalism would either - you do need social policies included - but it is the better option.
The Chinese are colonising Africa and the people can't, or probably don't want to, see it until it is far too late.
What does anger me is the fact that the US & EU always tell Africa & the rest of the developing world to open our markets - and then close their own markets to our produce under the guise of national interests. That is pure hypocricy and total BS.
FIFA need a total overhaul but the fact is that Honest Sepp is the best of a very bad bunch. His would be successors Jack Warner or CAF's Isa Hayatou make Blatter look like an alter boy.
Today 2 Dutch women were in court today for the henious crime of ... gasp .. wearing orange mini skirts with the name Bavaria Breweries written on it. You see the American P I S S water, masquerading as beer, manaufacturer that goes by the name of Budweiser objected and FIFA, so aware of the millions that they need to protect, didn't like this so called ambush marketing, so ensured the full might of the law fell down on this 2 dangerous criminals.
Of course FIFA had to say that they weren't arrested in an attempt to deflect criticism of high handedness but their court appearance out paid to that crap statement. So now the Dutch authorities are p*ssed off and all it has done is highlight the pettiness of FIFA and their hangers on, while giving unexpected publicity to a rival, and insignificant, brewer.
Already locals are up in arms about FIFA and the fact that the WC has not trickled down to their communities. And Costua and other militants are fueling the situation. Make no mistake, most of us are delighted that the WC is here and that it isn't the disaster that so many predicted but Honest Sepp has a lot to answer. In one one way I do hope he gets toppled at the next FIFA elections even though the alternative may be worse.
Andy - Gautrain still needs further development, expanding into the Pretoria region, while ther road upgrade project will continue for a while but other projects are coming to an end.
Crime - yeah we know it is bad and it is that single factor that is holding us back. Still I do do think that the overseas fans are safe here so long as they use common sense and accept the situation and act accordingly.
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obk
Dave Sexton
Posts: 1,516
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Post by obk on Jun 16, 2010 19:31:16 GMT
I'm not a communist I'm a socialist.
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Post by cpr on Jun 16, 2010 21:35:04 GMT
Some interesting reading and opinions but as far as the vuvuzela is concerned, it may not beso loud from now on.
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Post by Zamoraaaah on Jun 16, 2010 21:49:54 GMT
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 16, 2010 22:01:47 GMT
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Post by Zamoraaaah on Jun 16, 2010 22:03:02 GMT
In morse no one can hear you scream....
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Post by cpr on Jun 16, 2010 22:19:59 GMT
Really? I'll check with Lewis.
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obk
Dave Sexton
Posts: 1,516
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Post by obk on Jun 16, 2010 22:26:59 GMT
Too bad SA lost though, always a better tournament with the hosts still in it.
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Post by Lonegunmen on Jun 17, 2010 1:56:17 GMT
I know morse code, used to do 25 wpm back in 1979. Phil, the King of Beers? I had always wondered why Americans can drink a whole case without effect so I tried one. It has to be the weakest piss I have eever tried. It's more wtaered down than water. I hope the Dutch brewery that scored even more advertising than expected pay all the court costs etc for those women whom looked extremely sexy in their outfits. Honest Sepp has to keep Bin Hamman of the Asia confed on a tight chain. He's killing football in Asia and oceania too. Scared of losing his power. Sepp needs to squash him. What does make me laugh is the boffins at Fifa HQ honestly believe that Joe Normal Public can't see all the shinanigans going on. I have my empty brown envelope ready for any handouts Sepp for supporting you!
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Post by saphilip on Jun 17, 2010 5:34:12 GMT
Well you saw how the vuvuzela can be stopped - even if for a moment or so. Bad result for us last night but in fairness when you look at the rankings hardly a surprise. We were outplayed - simple as that and we are now all but out the tournament - especially of there is a result in the Mexico France game (go Mexico!!!).
The key moment - Forlan's goal put us on the back foot but the penalty & sending off finished us off - and the fans knew it. Was it a penalty & sending off? Well for a start the one replay (which was never repeated strangley enough) clearly showed that he was offside, and Suarez spent the whole night diving in and around the box that I guess he was bound to get it right once.
Still I think we had lost that game well before then - the fact is we needed to score first.
By the way the row over the 2 Dutch girls in minis in court has increased. FIFA & Bud the Wimps of Beer are both looking increasingly foolish.
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obk
Dave Sexton
Posts: 1,516
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Post by obk on Jun 17, 2010 7:06:29 GMT
It was offside and so no penalty, but a very hard to spot offside. Also as a keeper you don't go in like that, you put yourself in a very dangerous situation and invite the forward to fall over and claim a penalty.
You had some chances at a return in the match during the second chance, but as you say, on a whole you were outplayed by a very good Uruguay.
A draw in todays match would be great for you, then beat France while Mexico loses a point or three to Uruguay.
edit: Vuvuzelas should be a part of SA:s matches, no doubt about it. But at the other matches, oh dear. I know, others are blowing them as well, but that doesn't stop them from killing the atmosphere!
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Post by saphilip on Jun 17, 2010 7:57:23 GMT
A lot of ifs there mate - personally I think there will be a result today and that will basically see us out the WC. Even if there is a draw (which we are all hoping) we will still have to beat France and hope that Mexico lose as well - a lot of ifs there.
Maybe we can do everybody favour and knock out France, the team ranked no. 2 on the world volleyball rankings (after Argentina). It would please the Irish that's for sure.
I know a lot of people will be saying - aah great no more vuvuzelas, but that is seeing it from a singular point if view. You see I hope the vuvuzelas continue to be heard in this tournament.
Why? Because, despite what happened last night, it means that the average SA fan is still passionate about the WC and does still give a damn about it. As locals form the majority of the attendances at this WC, a silent stadium should give everybody pause for thought as it would mean that the WC would be dying rapidly on its ass down here.
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obk
Dave Sexton
Posts: 1,516
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Post by obk on Jun 17, 2010 8:07:17 GMT
I just read over 40 000 vuvuzelas has been sold IN England during the world cup!
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Post by Macmoish on Jun 17, 2010 8:31:03 GMT
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 17, 2010 10:23:14 GMT
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Post by londonranger on Jun 17, 2010 13:39:39 GMT
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