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Topic: Officials: A Contrary View. (Read 299 times)

hadders
Gerry Francis

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Officials: A Contrary View.
« Thread Started on Apr 9, 2012, 4:42pm »

Yesterday`s decision to award a pen and send off my favourite Rangers player after a blatant dive made me as mad as anyone on here, and I am strongly of the view that, in this instance, Rangers` appeal against a ban deserves to succeed. This thread is not about that incident, but about attitudes to officials generally. I try to be rational and fair-minded, and in my opinion, players, managers and fans generally give refs and officials far too rough a time, when we should really be admitting to some faults of our own. A few thoughts:

1. Everyone makes errors at work, including such responsible professionals as doctors, for example. Of course, like everyone else, officials make many mistakes, though I recently read evidence that the vast majority (over 90%) of decisions they make are correct. Players (who get paid far far more than officials) also make many mistakes every game, possibly far more (on average) than officials, and it is terribly tempting for managers (like Dalgleish this season) to scapegoat refs rather than admit their own failings.

Even if the players were fair and trying to help refs make the correct decisions, with TV cameras available (after the game, at least) to everyone but refs, the job is so hard that mistakes are inevitable. Refs have to make instant decisions in the face of extraordinary pressure and without the advantage of slow-motion replays from every angle. We know as fans how quick the game is- when someone asks me about a goal at a game I`ve been to, I often have to admit I didn`t really see it as it happened so fast (admittedly the Ellerslie pillars don`t help!)

2. The culture of cheating makes an already very difficult job near-impossible. So many players cheat as a matter of habit and never own up to it (raising their hand every time a ball goes out,for instance) , and we fans, in my view, are as much to blame as players. Imagine if a Rangers player was awarded a penalty and then spoke to the ref, somehow persuading him that he just slipped and no pen should be awarded. Who (apart from me, Gramps and a few other Old Corinthians) would praise him?

By the way, the line taken by many fans that other teams do it so so should we is totally morally bankrupt, a call for a race to the bottom that I certainly wouldn`t want to be a part of. People who make that argument totally forgo the right to complain about refs, in my view.

3. Lastly, regarding the conspiracy theory that Man United and other big clubs have refs in their pocket- seriously, where is the evidence? I just checked the most objective source I could find, MyFootball Facts.com, and looked at red cards received by different teams in the Prem over the past few seasons. Man Utd got the second highest number of red cards (5) in 2008-9, more (4) than 11 clubs in 2009-10 and more than 10 clubs in 2010-11. Also, trying again to be objective, obviously you`d expect them to attack a lot at Old Trafford and spend a lot of time in the opposition penalty area, so they might fairly be expected to get more penalties at home than a less successful side. This seems far more likely than that refs are all in the pay of the FA or Sir Alex.

To conclude, in my opinion, though of course like everyone else they have off-days, all things considered, officials in this country do a pretty good job. They are often among the only neutrals in the ground, really can`t win whatever decisions they make, and are subject to a level of abuse that is unique to football. I generally admire them, frankly, for taking on such a thankless but vital task, and direct my anger instead at the shameless culture of cheating that pervades the game from players, managers - and us, the fans.

P.S. Finally, relegation sucks, and of course we`d all choose the "glory" of mid-table obscurity, but honestly, I can`t wait for Wednesday: how exciting is this end of season? Willing our opponents to lose every game and knowing that goal difference could be key on the final day makes for amazing drama. To be honest,on reflection I reckon losing by only two goals was pretty good work yesterday. YouRsssss!

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schuter82
Dave Mangnall

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #1 on Apr 9, 2012, 4:53pm »

Fully agree that refs take far more stick than deserved, and I don't buy the conspiracy chatter one bit. Mistakes happen.

But regarding players cheating, I'm of the win at all costs camp. Former major league baseball player Mark Grace: "if you're not cheating you're not trying".

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Macmoish
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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #2 on Apr 9, 2012, 5:04pm »

Hadders

Whether people agree or disagree, excellent piece. Thanks

I'm of the school of no cheating. That it's not a matter of winning of at all costs.

There are obviously degrees of cheating, and I'm never profess to be a Saint. But a goal fisted into the net (Baidoo) is not a goal.

A Cardiff fan whether at the behest of anyone or on his own, and the Fire Alarm. That was cheating. If we had done it, I would have condemned it also. (Even though I'm sure some would not)

As with anything else: It's one standard for everyone. Racism by our fans or our players would just as reprehensible as if done by anyone else. Ditto coin throwing. Ditto anything.

As for Refs and Linesmen. I think they may not be very good. They may be intimidated or influenced consciously or unconsciously. But I do not believe - not without strong evidence - that even a ref with a brother who played for Bolton, who lived near by Manchester would deliberately screw against the away team to help Man Ut.

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"..I also find it insulting that qpr-reports site are asking so many questions. They seem to want to know everything that goes on at the club..."

fabs
Dave Sexton

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #3 on Apr 9, 2012, 5:07pm »

Apr 9, 2012, 5:04pm, Macmoish wrote:

This, so very much this! Even if not agreeing that officials are corrupt somehow makes me a Man Utd sympathiser. ::)

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hadders
Gerry Francis

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #4 on Apr 10, 2012, 12:32am »

Macmoish, you`re a gent. Schuter82, I assume you`re joking with that dreadful quote - if not, I`m (finally!) lost for words...

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schuter82
Dave Mangnall

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #5 on Apr 10, 2012, 1:58am »

Apr 10, 2012, 12:32am, hadders wrote:

Macmoish, you`re a gent. Schuter82, I assume you`re joking with that dreadful quote - if not, I`m (finally!) lost for words...

No joke sir. Cheating has been a part of sport for long before i came along and always will continue to be part. It's why games have rules and officials, and why rules are tweaked and amended over time, because players and coaches find ways to bend rules and get an advantage. To me that is part of the excitement. i do find certain forms of cheating less honorable than others, and that is generally on individuals to define their limits. But I think many of us have cheered an advantage in our favor. Is it cheating to earn a corner on the sly? Or a throw-in?

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canadaranger
Dave Sexton

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #6 on Apr 10, 2012, 3:03am »

Yes.

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blueeyedcptcook
Dave Sexton

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #7 on Apr 10, 2012, 3:51am »

Apr 10, 2012, 1:58am, schuter82 wrote:

Apr 10, 2012, 12:32am, hadders wrote:

Macmoish, you`re a gent. Schuter82, I assume you`re joking with that dreadful quote - if not, I`m (finally!) lost for words...

Except for Golf the Gentlemans game, although, when in the rough, I have at times, ahem used my Foot Wedge. :-[

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saphilip
Dave Sexton

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #8 on Apr 10, 2012, 5:27pm »

Fair enough Hadders and some good points.

I have been asking why FIFA have introduced so many hair brained schemes on football but have never once have tackled the scourge of diving, cheating and playacting. The sooner they do something about it the better, because it would make the life of officials easier, but it will never happen - and I can guess why.

Likewise FIFA & UEFA's reluctance to introduce any form of technology to the game is also a scandal but again I can guess why they don't want to.

So yes refs are hampered by an organisation that is very much in the 19th century way of thinking, by the fact that the game has got faster and by the increase in cheating.

It doesn't help - as we saw today - that when the FA are faced with a totally wrong decisions that involves diving of the highest order they totally bottle it up and make the situation even worse.

So yes I do understand the plight of the ref but here is the rub - I have never asked them to ref a game. Nobody has put a gun to their head and forced them to do it - and as much as my company expects high standard of work from me, so I expect the highest level of standard from the refs and his linesmen. More importantly when they do get it wrong I expect them to admit to theri mistakes, apologise and do something about it to ensure that they don't keep on making the same mistake.

Just as I am accountable for what I do and am expected to own up to my errors I expect the same from the officials.

Yes we all make mistakes and I understand that the men in the middle will get it wrong. There is nothing wrong with that but when I see the same lot make the same mistake week in and week out and nothing happens then I feel that the fans are being ripped off.

Yes the big clubs do get thre wrong end of decisiopns from time to time but trust me it is usually the smaller clubs that get the shite end of the stick. Fulham, Wigan, QPR have all had bad decisions go against them over the past 15 days - and in all these acses the decisions have had a huge effect on the title race, the race for ECL spots and of course down at the bottom.

This is not swings and roundabouts that evens itself out over a course of a season - as so loved by supporters of big club - this is something that happens far too often, usually in favour of the Man Utd's at the expense of the smaller clubs.

Funny how linesmen can pick up offsides no matter how marginal when the small teams are on attack and yet, within 24 hours, 2 linesmen missed 3 obvious offside decisions that had a big effect on both ends of the league table.

I ma totally agisnt cheating and eyt when last did the FA ever overturn a ban because the person was on the wrong end of a balatant piece of cheating? I can't remember. Derry is not the first QPR victim. Love him or hate him very few QPR fans can deny that Barton was on the end of a very bad piece of gamesmanship that on reflection had been practiced and rehearsed by the whole Norwich team. Barton was sent off for intent to headbutt - and the FA upheld the 3 match ban. Funny then that the FA saw nothing wrong with the Canary holding his nose and making a meal of being hit in the face when the official reason for the red was intent.

No I don't think it is a conspiracy, although you have to wonder how on earth the FA could put somebody in charge of game involving a team that is based within 30 minutes of his house against a side that was battling with his home town team (whose younger brother had played for) to avoid the drop.

No instead I think it is sheer incompetence by people who lack common sense and lack consistency - and are protected by the FA to the hilt with no comeback.

Make no msiatke when I say that the avergae English ref is now on par with somebody from Burkino Faso or the DRC I am not saying it lightly. In fact I may just be overstating the standards of your English ref. Just a pity that I have to see this type of performance happen week in and week out - with Manure being the biggest beneficiaries.

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terryb
Dave Sexton

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #9 on Apr 10, 2012, 6:23pm »

Apr 10, 2012, 1:58am, schuter82 wrote:

Apr 10, 2012, 12:32am, hadders wrote:

Macmoish, you`re a gent. Schuter82, I assume you`re joking with that dreadful quote - if not, I`m (finally!) lost for words...

It is definitely cheating to ask for a throw in to your team when you know that it should br for the other side etc. To some people this may be regarded as minor but if this is tolerated then also all other forms must be.

Personally I regard deliberately fouling an opponent to be cheating just as much as "diving" is. Yet how many times have we all said that he "took that caution for the team". Why is that more acceptable than "going down easily"?

This is the problem with this subject. We all have different oppinions as to where the line is drawn & what constitutes cheating. To me any deliberate breaking of the laws of the game can be regarded as such. How many of us castigated the club when we heard that they played a game at West Ham(?) a long time ago with twelve players, or did we all laugh about it & say well done?

Perhaps I am being controversial, you may not like "diving" but you have no right to condemn players who do it unless you condemn them everytime they deliberately infringe the laws or the spirit of the game.

« Last Edit: Apr 10, 2012, 6:28pm by terryb »

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Macmoish
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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #10 on Apr 10, 2012, 7:32pm »

I do think there are degrees. And I don't think any of us are Saints. Or demand Sainthood from our players.
And probably everyone of us has different expectations.
And as always: If we unilaterally disarm - and the other team doesn't

But at some point, I would hope we'd keep to our standards regardless of consequences.

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"..I also find it insulting that qpr-reports site are asking so many questions. They seem to want to know everything that goes on at the club..."

ingham
Dave Sexton

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Re: Officials: A Contrary View.
« Reply #11 on Apr 12, 2012, 5:09pm »

Superb post, hadders. Absolute gem. Interesting figures, too.

Personally I tend to the view that the officials are about the only people we can trust at a game, so your carefully made points were a breath of fresh air. I am definitely of the opinion that the number of mistakes the officials make is dwarfed by the litany of player errors piling up minute by minute in the modern game - even leaving aside the almost non-stop cheating.

A Club concedes a late goal. They're hanging on for a famous victory or a hard fought draw, and it slips away in the final minute. The ref missed a push, the linesman missed the offside.

Why is it always THAT split second which is the decisive one?

Why are we so upset about that, and so complacent about the 89 minutes of 'split seconds' beforehand, when the players will do anything, it seems, except score enough goals to put the matter beyond doubt. But no. It is as if they are actively working towards the linesman's failure to flag, the ref's failure to see. Don't get too many goals, lads, we might have a chance of being outraged.

We all know that teams which are 5 or 6 goals to the good rarely chase the officials around at the end if a late goal reduces their margin of triumph to only 4 or 5. Because, in that case, it doesn't matter EVEN to victims. THEY don't care. We are not concerned with impartial justice, it is mere self-interest. When we lose out, we're upset.

I don't say we shouldn't be, but what about the other 89 minutes? Was Young cheating all over the pitch so effectively throughout the game that the team we put so much faith could do nothing about it, the poor darlings?

Is it officials who can't officiate, or players who can't play. We spare the players' blushes no matter how dismal their performances are, and it isn't the officials' wages which left the Club £50 million plus in debt.

Why have highly paid 'master craftsmen' in the dugout and on the pitch if 'incompetent' officials are the ones who really determine a Club's future?

And that's the point.

The real crime - and it is a serious one - is that the officials are required to be impeccably impartial by people who are not. Do we want impartiality, to see a mirror image of our own bias in their decisions.

The figures hadders gives are certainly intriguing. In the old days, Liverpool were the darlings of the authorities, always had the best disciplinary record (it surprised me, since they seemed tough enough), always got plenty of penalties at home. Or so it was said. But they were usually winning, usually top, and proverbially the devil at home, so you could make a case that they tended to get away with it because they were better. Or, to put it another way, the less effective sides would always find another reason apart from the real one.

They're paid enough, they just aren't good enough.

It is natural to be emotional about these things. And infuriating to feel that your own hurt is just laughed away by the press, the FA, and the opposition who are laughing all the way to another 3 points.

The truth is that we have so little faith in the players that we fear that the slightest thing will put the game beyond them. But we exaggerate their capabilities, and worse, I think, we identify THEM with the Club. As a result, we are far too ready to blame someone or something else when we should be asking why they are paid so much when they do so little and why the Club is losing so much of its own money when 'investors' keep telling us it is spending theirs.

They all have a vested interest in blaming anyone and everyone except themselves. We don't. We should hold them responsible for the shortcomings - footballing and financial - of the team and the Club.

Until we do, I say SCORE MORE ****ING GOALS YOURSELVES when something goes wrong. At least the officials know HOW to wave the flag and blow the whistle (even if they do so at the wrong times). I'd like to say the players had a comparable mastery of their own basics, if, that is, I had the first idea what it was they were trying to do.

I don't mean that officials don't have their blind spots, prejudices, or limitations. Nor that cheating players don't cheat.

Some years ago, on LFW, there was a virtual consensus - maybe 1 or 2 persons demurred - on a night when we won 1-0 away (Grimsby?) because our player simply punched the ball into the net. No-one was in any doubt it was deliberate handball. Few thought it was out of order when it was to QPR's benefit.

Generally, we might get better refereeing and linesmanning(!) if BOTH sides are equally outraged by the officials' errors. But as long as it is the losers who complain - perhaps hadders has some statistics about that

- the people who didn't lose - the FA, the opposition, the other Clubs won't care much, if at all, and why should they?

So hats off to you again, hadders mate. You can always swim against the tide if your strokes are as well judged as in this post.

Of course, he was a cheating *****rd!

« Last Edit: Apr 12, 2012, 5:28pm by ingham »

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