|
Post by Macmoish on Mar 23, 2011 6:34:22 GMT
Guardian/David Conn
We'll listen to case for terraces, says sports minister Hugh Robertson
• Fans' group launches petition to reintroduce standing • Robertson says government will examine evidenceThe sports minister, Hugh Robertson, has said the government will consider the possibility of reintroducing standing areas at top-level football matches, 21 years after Lord Justice Taylor recommended terracing be outlawed. At the first ever meeting to discuss the issue with the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF), football authorities, police and the Football Licensing Authority, which took place on Monday, Robertson said he would examine the evidence for safe standing. In particular, he said he wanted to see whether modern terracing would be safe, technically able to be built into stadiums and capable of being policed, and whether there is demand from substantial numbers to stand. But anxious not to raise immediate expectations, Robertson told the meeting frankly that because the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, in which 96 Liverpool supporters died, led to Taylor's recommendation that standing be outlawed, the stakes are extremely high to recommend a change. If he were to do so, and there was then a major accident or incident of disorder on a terrace, Robertson said: "The minister's head would be on a spike on Tower Bridge before he could draft a resignation letter." The meeting was called by the Liberal Democrat sports spokesman, Don Foster, who has tabled a private member's bill calling for clubs to be permitted safe standing areas. "I am very pleased we brought all parties together for the first time to discuss the issue," he said. "Real fans are paying high ticket prices and losing out, and I am confident safe standing can be introduced which meets all the minister's concerns. We will be gathering the required evidence, and fans must now make their voices heard." The FSF will launch an online petition calling for the introduction of safe standing areas at stadiums in England's top two divisions, where all-seating has been compulsory since 1994, as recommended by Taylor four years earlier. All the authorities represented at the meeting stated their opposition to any reintroduction of standing areas, although they no longer state that this is predominantly an issue of fan safety, rather of crowd control. The Premier League, Football League and Football Association argued that all-seat stadiums had been crucial in improving the game's fortunes and image since Hillsborough, and there is no major demand for standing. The FSF is calling for defined areas of grounds to be made available for safe standing areas, similar to those in Germany where closely spaced barriers make a crush close to impossible. The FSF points to a survey it conducted in which 90% of respondents said fans should have the choice of sitting or standing. The organisation hopes thousands will sign the online petition. Robertson stressed he is wary of considering change, but would look at all evidence presented, and would want a consensus, including the police in particular, that standing would be safe. Andy Holt, assistant chief constable of South Yorkshire police, representing the Association of Chief Police Officers at the meeting, said it is up to the FSF to demonstrate that standing areas could be policed effectively and would not risk increasing disorder at matches. Malcolm Clarke, the FSF chairman, argued that such standing areas would enable fans to enjoy matches in a more traditional atmosphere. Clarke also pointed out that many supporters regularly stand at top-flight football in the all-seat stands, a practice the Football Licensing Authority considers a safety risk. "Fans do believe they have lost something in the move to all-seating," Clarke said. "We will be doing further research to respond to the concerns of those who are not yet convinced." www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/22/terracing-government-reintroduce-standing
|
|
|
Post by Lonegunmen on Mar 23, 2011 10:02:52 GMT
Yes please, bring them back, just police them better.
|
|
|
Post by cpr on Mar 23, 2011 11:52:57 GMT
Too right lone, much better standing at game!
Won't happen though.
|
|
manta
Gordon Jago
Posts: 945
|
Post by manta on Mar 23, 2011 12:46:55 GMT
Let's get this straight, football terracing didn't cause the deaths at Hillsbrough, it was bad policing and high fencing no steward had the key to open. Terracing became a sacrifical lamb in the response, and that is why the whole Taylor report is a nonsense.
I am pleased at least the government will listen to the proposals. Most people want to stand at matches, that is a fact, so bring it back have better policing and no high fences.
|
|
|
Post by scarletpimple on Mar 23, 2011 13:24:20 GMT
Bring back freedom of choice, should never been taken away in the 1st place.
Total overreaction, should have been reforms on how grounds are policed and stewerted.
Stupid bloody fences at English football grounds.
|
|
|
Post by The Scooter on Mar 23, 2011 13:58:22 GMT
Policing.....
Doesn't come free........Met insisting now on "full cost recovery".
|
|
|
Post by klr on Mar 23, 2011 14:09:36 GMT
Let's get this straight, football terracing didn't cause the deaths at Hillsbrough, it was bad policing and high fencing no steward had the key to open. Terracing became a sacrifical lamb in the response, and that is why the whole Taylor report is a nonsense. I am pleased at least the government will listen to the proposals. Most people want to stand at matches, that is a fact, so bring it back have better policing and no high fences. & obviously its important to remember that it has absolutely nothing to do with the 20'000 Liverpool fans that turned up without tickets & still turn up in their thousands without tickets to this very day. No one will ever admit it publically, but major disasters of the nature of Hillsborough were narrowly avoided at the 1986 FA Cup final & as recently as the 2007 Champions League final in Athens all caused by thousands of people from Liverpool turning up to sporting events without tickets & then forcing entry in to the stadium. But hey, lets pretend that thats not the case.
|
|
|
Post by Macmoish on Mar 23, 2011 14:59:18 GMT
BBC
Premier League to OPPOSE calls for return of terracesPage newsvote.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/12830836.stmThe Premier League will oppose moves to reintroduce standing areas at top-flight football matches in England. The Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) is to launch an online petition calling for the return of standing areas in the top two divisions. But Premier League spokesman Dan Johnson said: "Our view is that the benefits of all-seater stadia far outweigh the return of standing areas." Terraces were banned following the Hillsborough disaster in 1989. The issue of allowing some standing areas has been revisited a number of times since all-seater stadiums became compulsory in 1994. Continue reading the main story They [all-seater stadiums] have led to more women and more children attending the games and no matter how safe standing can be made, seating is always safer Dan Johnson Premier League spokesman Kate Hoey tried to back a scheme when she was sports minister in 2001 but the-then Government blocked it. The FSF held a meeting on Monday with representatives from the police, Government and football authorities. FSF chairman Malcolm Clarke argued that many fans already stand all match despite having seats which is viewed as a safety risk. Clarke told the Guardian: "Fans do believe they have lost something in the move to all-seating. We will be doing further research to respond to the concerns of those who are not yet convinced." Sports minister Hugh Robertson said he would examine the evidence for safe standing but played down any likelihood of a change to the law. Referring to the prospect of an accident or crowd trouble if terraces were reintroduced, Robertson told the meeting: "The minister's head would be on a spike on Tower Bridge before he could draft a resignation letter." The Government insists no compelling case has been made to bring back standing areas. "Football grounds are safer and more comfortable than they were 20 years ago," said a spokesman for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. "All-seater stadia are the best means to ensure the safety and security of fans and have been a contributing factor to the increased diversity of those attending matches in recent years. "The Government appreciates that there are some supporters who would like to see the return of standing areas at football stadia, but do not believe that a compelling case has been made to change the policy." Premier League spokesman Johnson added: "They [all-seater stadiums] have led to more women and more children attending the games and no matter how safe standing can be made, seating is always safer. "We will not be encouraging the Government to change the law." newsvote.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/12830836.stm
|
|
manta
Gordon Jago
Posts: 945
|
Post by manta on Mar 23, 2011 15:56:22 GMT
Let's get this straight, football terracing didn't cause the deaths at Hillsbrough, it was bad policing and high fencing no steward had the key to open. Terracing became a sacrifical lamb in the response, and that is why the whole Taylor report is a nonsense. I am pleased at least the government will listen to the proposals. Most people want to stand at matches, that is a fact, so bring it back have better policing and no high fences. & obviously its important to remember that it has absolutely nothing to do with the 20'000 Liverpool fans that turned up without tickets & still turn up in their thousands without tickets to this very day. No one will ever admit it publically, but major disasters of the nature of Hillsborough were narrowly avoided at the 1986 FA Cup final & as recently as the 2007 Champions League final in Athens all caused by thousands of people from Liverpool turning up to sporting events without tickets & then forcing entry in to the stadium. But hey, lets pretend that thats not the case. Yep I agree with that and was also another contributing factor.
|
|
|
Post by 0hwestlondon on Mar 23, 2011 21:54:18 GMT
the thing is most lower league clubs still have terracing, and you never hear of problems with people being injured its the case now that elf and safety rules the way, with proper stewarding in and around the ground and the back of fences the chances of another hillsbrough are extremely slim, and it will also add to the capacity by a couple of thousand at least, bring em back i say.
|
|
|
Post by Lonegunmen on Mar 23, 2011 22:31:00 GMT
KLR I banged on about that point on the old original MB and got slammed for it. It was most certainly a major contributing factor....unless you're a Liverpool supporter. deniel is the best form of defence. That it happened is indeed very sad and regretful. The Police, the Ground stewards and Liverpool fans have all got to accept some responsibility and if I was one of those fans whom showed up without a ticket and pushed my way in, I would still be feeling guilty.
People stand at most games anyway. the seats just get in the way. proper terrcaing with spacing and good stewarding as well as good CCTV can work. It works in Germany.
|
|
|
Post by harlowranger on Mar 23, 2011 23:29:06 GMT
The return of terracing - where do you stand? Sports minister Hugh Robertson says the government will consider allowing the return of terracing at football matches in the Premier League and Championship. It is nearly 22 years since the Hillsborough disaster, which cost 96 Liverpool fans their lives, led to the Taylor Report, recommending the outlawing of terracing. Robertson made his admission this week during a meeting with the Football Supporters Federation, police, Football Licensing Authority and football authorities called by LibDem sports spokesman Don Foster. He has tabled a private member’s bill calling for safe standing areas to be allowed at top flight clubs. Here, MirrorSport presents the case for and against in the emotive argument over terracing. *** AGAINST - Margaret Aspinall (Hillsborough Family Support Group. Margaret lost son James, 18, in the disaster) “I will always oppose standing at football grounds, and so will our group. Why take a backward step, when football grounds are now so much more safer places than they used to be? If you go to a match these days, you’re 99.9 per cent certain of going home safe to your family. My son James, and the other 95 victims, didn’t have that. I just wish they had. “It took the death of my son and 95 others to make football grounds safe for everybody else, for future generations and those who go to games today. I care passionately about the safety of supporters. Wherever they are from, whatever team they support, their safety is paramount. “I think it’s totally disrespectful to the 96 who died, and the legacy of safe football stadia that they left behind, to start trying to change things back to how they were. I feel as if I’m on rewind because I’m saying the same thing every year - we don’t ever want to see standing in grounds again. “There is no such thing as ‘safe standing’. What a stupid thing to say. Where there is standing, there is fencing. You can’t have one without the other. And where there is fencing, that’s where it becomes dangerous. Why go back to the 1980s? If you go backwards and introduce standing at grounds, you risk bringing back all the problems of the past, like hooliganism. It’s just not worth it. “Every time you go into a football ground these days and look at all the seats, the question must be - at what cost? The cost was the deaths of 96 innocent people that brought about change, in terms of all-seater stadiums, so why anyone would want to go back to the past is beyond me. “Supporters of standing at grounds in this country say it’s been a success in Germany. Well, we can’t help what Germany does, but have they had a disaster in which 96 people lost their lives? No. We have, and we must make sure nothing like that can ever be allowed to happen again. “Fans still enjoy games with all-seater stadia. The atmosphere at games is still there. I wish my son was still alive to go to games, to enjoy the atmosphere, but he’s not. "It’s also very insensitive at this time of year, with the anniversary of Hillsborough coming up, for the whole issue of standing at football grounds to be brought up.” *** FOR - Malcolm Clarke (chair of the Football Supports Federation) Every week, thousands of fans stand in front of their seats while watching Premier League and Championship games. Attempts to end this practice have all ended in abject failure - make no mistake, the vast majority of fans want the choice to sit or stand. The last Football Supporters’ Federation national fans’ survey was absolutely resounding - nine out of 10 fans backed the choice to sit or stand and 88 per cent of fans felt atmospheres would improve if safe standing areas were introduced. The FSF’s Safe Standing Campaign is not just about those who prefer to stand. By giving supporters the choice, everyone benefits. Those who wish to stand can do so, while those who prefer to sit no longer have to worry about having their view blocked. Of course, the shadow of Hillsborough looms large and is often cited as a reason to oppose safe-standing areas. It’s an entirely understandable, but mistaken, response. That tragic event must never be allowed to happen again. The family and friends of Hillsborough victims will forever have our deepest sympathies and respect. But the Taylor Report confirmed that standing is not inherently unsafe. If it was, it wouldn’t be allowed at grounds below the top two divisions and at other sports. Lord Taylor’s damning verdict blamed police negligence, poor stadium design (which left no control over the numbers of fans in individual pens), bad management and fences. The FSF does not propose that the stringent safety standards laid down in the Government’s Green Guide be abolished or weakened. This campaign isn’t about a return to crumbling terraces, but rather an introduction of the modern safe-standing model which is common in Europe. Eventually, reality must intrude. We should adopt systems which allows people to choose how to watch the game in safety, and gives clubs the freedom to decide what’s best for their own ground. It’s time they listened to the fans. Read more: www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Terracing-As-the-government-agrees-to-think-about-bringing-back-standing-areas-at-top-flight-grounds-MirrorFootball-examines-the-cases-for-and-against-article716647.html#ixzz1HT667uoF Sign up for MirrorFootball's Morning Spy newsletter Register here
|
|
|
Post by Lonegunmen on Mar 23, 2011 23:57:26 GMT
And I read a Liverpool fan still in denial that they may have contributed to the disaster in any way shape or form.
|
|
|
Post by Macmoish on Mar 24, 2011 6:40:04 GMT
David Conn/The Guardian
Campaign to reinstate standing to go on tour of the grounds
• Fans to get chance to try new-style seating used in Germany • 'We are not talking about bringing back old-style terraces'The Football Supporters' Federation plans to tour the country with an example of the "rail seating" widely used in German grounds in a bid to gain support for its campaign to reintroduce standing at top-level English matches. The Guardian revealed that the sports minister, Hugh Robertson, has agreed to consider reintroducing standing areas, which have been banned in the top two divisions since 1994, if the football authorities and police form a consensus in support. The FSF is determined to demonstrate the difference between modern standing accommodation and the old-style English football terraces in grounds at the time of the Hillsborough disaster. John Darch, an FSF member, is working with the UK manufacturer Ferco Seating Systems, a partner to Germany company Eheim-Möbel, which has built rail seating in Hoffenheim's new stadium and the refurbished Stuttgart stadium. "We have to help people understand we are not talking about bringing back old-style terraces," Darch said. "I will be inviting supporters at all clubs around the country to contact me asking me to visit with the mock-up. Then fans themselves, the chairmen and chief executives of clubs, safety officers and politicians can see we are talking about modern supporter accommodation, which fans and clubs enjoy, and which is passed as safe by the Bundesliga." Most clubs in the Bundesliga, which has the highest crowds and is the world's most profitable league, incorporate standing areas, including at newly-built or refurbished grounds. The German Football Federation decided in 1993 against introducing all-seat stadiums, as has been required here by law since the 1990 Taylor report following Hillsborough. The federation explained its reasoning by saying it is a "social function" of football to keep ticket prices affordable, thereby not excluding the "socially disadvantaged" from attending matches. Prices in Germany for standing areas, at around €12-14 (£10.50-£12.20), are around a quarter of standard prices for seats at top Premier League clubs. The German stadiums' standing areas, some of them very large, some smaller, are made up of rail seating, called "vario" seats in Germany. Rails are spaced closely together, allowing just one or two rows of supporters in between. The Bundesliga and safety authorities which approve standing areas take the view that the closeness of the barriers makes a crush almost impossible. Fans' tickets allocate a row and position, which the FSF argues should meet one of the police's main concerns, that in standing areas, it is more difficult to identify people causing trouble. The rails have flip-up seats which are locked upright for Bundesliga matches at which fans stand, then brought down for Champions League matches at which fans sit. Uefa and Fifa both require stadiums used for their competitions to be all-seater, so the rail seating enables Bundesliga grounds to meet that requirement. Ferco Seating Systems' managing director, Michael Burnett, said his company built and supplied the 60,000 seats for Arsenal's Emirates Stadium, and is making the seats for the London 2012 Olympics aquatic centre. "We would not be proposing the introduction of the vario seat for standing areas if we did not believe it is very safe indeed," he said. "Germany has very stringent safety legislation and specifications, and the vario seat fulfils all of those. I would go further, and say it would be much safer here to have this accommodation designed specifically for modern safe standing, than to have supporters standing, as they currently do, in seated areas, where there is only a low seat in front of them to break a fall." Research recently carried out for the Premier League by consultants Crowd Dynamics found that persistent standing in seating areas, which is becoming more common at top clubs, presents a significant safety risk. According to the Football Licensing Authority, fans standing up in seated areas could result in "progressive crowd collapse" – a crush. However, repeated efforts by clubs to ask fans to keep to their seats are failing, and fans are continuing to stand. Andy Holt, a spokesman on football policing for the Association of Chief Police Officers, acknowledged to the Guardian that standing areas can be safe. He said the police reluctance to see standing areas return to the top two divisions is more a question of crowd control, and policing disorder, than safety in terms of Hillsborough-style crushes. Holt said, however, that it would be "rewarding football supporters for breaking the rules" if safe standing areas were to be reintroduced at English grounds in response to fans standing now in seated areas. www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/23/standing-terraces-campaign-tour-grounds
|
|
|
Post by Macmoish on Mar 24, 2011 6:41:53 GMT
The Guardian
Hillsborough Family Support Group condemn standing areas proposal
• Campaign launched to reintroduce terracing at English grounds • We are totally against it, say relatives of 1989 disaster victims Proposals to bring back standing areas at top-flight football grounds in England have been condemned by the Hillsborough Family Support Group (HFSG). As reported by the Guardian, The Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) have launched an online petition calling for the return of standing areas in the top two divisions of English football. The campaign already looks to be foundering, however, with the HFSG and Premier League opposing the move, and the government saying there has been no compelling case to bring back terraces. Standing at matches in the top two divisions was banned following the Hillsborough disaster in 1989, and the HFSG chairman Margaret Aspinall said: "The Hillsborough Family Support Group are totally against any form of standing whatsoever. We are absolutely against it and always will be. Our football clubs should remain all-seater stadiums. "People always say they have standing areas in Germany, but we don't play any part over what happens in that country – we just believe there's no such thing as safe standing in this country. We will not be encouraging the government to change the law." The issue of allowing some standing areas has been revisited a number of times since all-seat stadiums became compulsory in 1994. Kate Hoey tried to back a scheme when she was sports minister in 2001 but the then Government blocked it. The FSF held a meeting on Monday with representatives from the police, government and football authorities. In attendance, the sports minister, Hugh Robertson, said he would examine the evidence for safe standing but played down any likelihood of a change to the law. www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/23/hillsborough-family-support-ground-standing-areasThe Guardian
Should top-level English football bring back standing?
Malcolm Clarke, chair of the Football Supporters' Federation, and Andy Holt, assistant chief constable of South Yorkshire police, debate the terraces issue Yes, Malcolm Clarke, Chair of the Football Supporters' Federation The issue in English football is not whether there should be standing in the top two leagues but how we manage it, as there is already an extensive and increasing amount of standing at games. In Liverpool's recent matches against Manchester United and Braga almost the whole of the Kop stood. It is commonplace, particularly among away supporters, for large numbers to stand throughout the game. Since the Taylor report there have been great advances in technology, particularly in Europe, which enable systems to be used that can be employed in either safe standing or seating mode. These would also be suitable for clubs in our top leagues who might play in Europe. There is already a strong regulatory framework that defines what constitutes a safe standing area, called the Green Guide, which is applied in Leagues One and Two. The current law is illogical because it basically states that whether a standing area is safe or not is determined by the quality of the football played on the pitch. Either that or the safety of fans in the lower leagues is less important. This is a nonsense. Of course, absolute safety can never be guaranteed in any walk of life. The only 100% safe motorcar is one that never leaves the garage; the only 100% guaranteed safe football ground is an empty one. It's about taking reasonable measures to mitigate against risk and we believe that the Green Guide does this. Why do I believe safe standing at games should be allowed? Simply, because fans feel they've lost something: it is easier to sing when you're standing up. Lord Taylor said an appropriate price for watching a top-flight game sitting down should be £6. If you factor in inflation this would probably be £14 or £15, yet prices in the Premier League have gone way above that. You can accommodate more people in a safe standing area – this would enable clubs to reduce ticket prices, while increasing attendance and their match-day income. It's a win for everybody. Eventually reality must intrude. Fans are standing now in seated areas. There is a widespread demand from the customers for safe standing areas, from both those who want to stand and those who want to sit. We estimate that about 15% of the ground being safe standing would suffice in most cases. The challenge for us is to produce the evidence to persuade politicians and football clubs that this is a sensible way to go. Hopefully, within five years we will achieve this. The first thing is to get the law changed and then we can discuss it with the football clubs and the football authorities. No, Andy Holt, Assistant chief constable of South Yorkshire police All the football authorities, including the Football Association and the Premier League, are against standing. Their view is that the culture inside our football stadiums has changed in the last 20 years [since the Taylor report] and that it is a more welcoming place for families and young people [than] before standing was abolished. I agree with that. The atmosphere is better than was previously the case 20 years ago. Of course there is still some violence associated with football, but this has moved from the grounds to surrounding areas and transport interchanges. We have made great progress regarding crowd control and crowd safety inside stadiums in this country. There are a number of reasons for this, such as better stewarding and policing, CCTV etc. However, if we were to change any element of that I would need to be convinced that the changes would not lead to a reverse of this progress. I would want to be assured that any form of standing would not make it more difficult to steward crowds, identify someone causing trouble etc. The Football Supporters' Federation is keen to introduce standing but it has not been able to give me any detail on how it would look like or how it would work and, at the moment, I don't think I can support the idea of reintroducing standing. The message I have heard from all partners in football is that they weren't the least interested in reintroducing terracing. Would there be an issue about costs? You would have to ask the clubs but they would be likely to say that it would cost them a lot to go back to terracing. The FSF says it would not be mandatory but the Premier League would want to have something to say about what the policy should be in its competition. If anyone put a proposal forward I would be able to say: "In my view it would have this effect on policing and stewarding." But before there is a proposal I can't do that. And given that we have something that in the main works with regards to crowd safety and crowd control at the moment and still making progress I would be very nervous to make changes. There are always improvements to be made in regards to these issues and we don't get it right in every incident, but the trend is certainly one of improvement. • Vote now in our poll www.guardian.co.uk/football/poll/2011/mar/23/terracing-return-poll-footballwww.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/mar/23/should-english-football-bring-back-standing
|
|
|
Post by Lonegunmen on Mar 24, 2011 9:48:39 GMT
head, sand, buried - in the past.
|
|
|
Post by klr on Mar 24, 2011 11:59:52 GMT
KLR I banged on about that point on the old original MB and got slammed for it. It was most certainly a major contributing factor....unless you're a Liverpool supporter. deniel is the best form of defence. That it happened is indeed very sad and regretful. The Police, the Ground stewards and Liverpool fans have all got to accept some responsibility and if I was one of those fans whom showed up without a ticket and pushed my way in, I would still be feeling guilty. People stand at most games anyway. the seats just get in the way. proper terrcaing with spacing and good stewarding as well as good CCTV can work. It works in Germany. Yep, agree 100% I wonder how many millions have been wasted on the various consultations / public enquiries ? We all know the real reason behind the terrible disaster happened, yes, it was South Yorkshire Police's fault that 20'000 Liverpool fans travelled to Sheffield without tickets. Yes, it was UEFA's fault that 20'000 Liverpool fans travelled to Athens without tickets in 2007 & a major disaster averted by luck rather than any other factor. & still people from Liverpool travel to sporting fixtures in their thousands WITHOUT TICKETS & FORCE ENTRY IN TO THE VENUES. Didnt it happen at The Emirates a couple of years ago as well ? Champions League fixture ? Terracing is not the problem, people from Liverpool travelling to sorting events without tickets is the problem. Oh My God, what a terrible thing I have just said.
|
|
|
Post by cpr on Mar 24, 2011 16:21:11 GMT
You speak the unspeakable, a truth that may not be told, history has been re-written, just ask the Sun newspaper.
|
|