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Post by w12ranger on Mar 30, 2010 18:30:29 GMT
...Players don't always make great Managers.
Forgot to add this yesterday when I posted about the Platinum Evening.
NW when discussing his Managerial career and went of on a tangent a bit when discussing why some great players don't make great managers. Highlighting the case of Bryan Robson and presently Gianfranco Zola, NW explained how some players who had outstanding careers have difficulties making the step up to managerial level as successfully because they have little experience of the difficult times in football.
Warnock was by no means having a dig at anyone but he used the examples of Robson & Zolas illustrious playing careers to highlight how in management they are unable to draw on experience of the difficult times because during their careers for the teams they played for there really wasn't any. He then went onto make a point of how the likes of himself and Mick Jones had plenty of experience of the challenging times in football and thats why they are still around.
Thought this was an interesting discussion...
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Post by blockhead on Mar 30, 2010 18:33:40 GMT
thanks W12 another top post.
what was NWs playing career?
and I am trying to think of a manager that has been at the top in both disciplines, Cruyf maybe?
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Post by desorchid on Mar 30, 2010 19:40:32 GMT
Clough.
Marvellous footballer - well great record anyway, obvously never saw him. Perhaps some more senior members may wish to confirm/deny.
And a reasonable manager too...
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Post by blockhead on Mar 30, 2010 19:42:59 GMT
exceptions to the rule must be great players who are crock, Clough and Boby Robson.
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Post by QPR Report on Mar 30, 2010 19:44:59 GMT
Maybe in part cos they're treated like heroes and stars and start their way from the top...
Rather than have to earn their way/build their way up....
Venables was a very good player who was a very good coach/manager
But people you'd have bet on: Ray Wilkins/Frank McLintock/Dave Mackay really weren't
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Post by desorchid on Mar 30, 2010 19:51:48 GMT
exceptions to the rule must be great players who are crock, Clough and Boby Robson. Yeah, maybe there's something in that, although TV sort of disproves it. What about Alf Ramsey, he played for England, and, ahem, had a certain amount of success after. (Actualy, i think his greatest managerial achievement was with Ipswich) Jummy Armfield also played loads for England and took Leeds to the European Cup Final didn't he? |
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Post by Zamoraaaah on Mar 30, 2010 19:58:10 GMT
Pep Guardiola's had a decent start to his managerial career.  |
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Post by w12ranger on Mar 30, 2010 21:29:21 GMT
I think Warnock was referring more to the modern game.
Off course we can highlight the shining examples which go against Warnocks point. However, I certainly think there is a lot of truth in what Warnock says especially when you look at the likes of Gullit, Wise, Zola, Keane, Wilkins, Robson, Adams, Ince, Pearce etc. All of which are players who cleared up with honours, were leaders on the pitch and you think would make good managers yet despite maybe moderate short term success as managers haven't really achieved the sort of success and longevity one might have hoped.
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Post by desorchid on Mar 30, 2010 21:39:50 GMT
I think Warnock was referring more to the modern game. Off course we can highlight the shining examples which go against Warnocks point. However, I certainly think there is a lot of truth in what Warnock says especially when you look at the likes of Gullit, Wise, Zola, Keane, Wilkins, Robson, Adams, Ince, Pearce etc. All of which are players who cleared up with honours, were leaders on the pitch and you think would make good managers yet despite maybe moderate short term success as managers haven't really achieved the sort of success and longevity one might have hoped. Ah, come on, moving the goal posts or what! ;D I still think Pearce and Ince may come through. (pains me to say it, can't stand Ince.) I think though that almost without exception, they were all parachuted in to 'big' jobs, or at least with a big fanfare to a small club. That in part i would suggest is the problem. |
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Post by Hogan on Mar 30, 2010 23:46:11 GMT
What is the measure of success for a football manager?
Does it not depend on which side of the spectrum one looks at it?
Is Dario Grady a successful manager?
Is success only measured by trophies won?
Is keeping Macclesfield up and getting them moving when they seemed doomed deemed as success?
Oh questions questions.......
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Post by desorchid on Mar 31, 2010 0:41:53 GMT
Well exactly.
Hogan you are spot on.
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eskey8
Dave Sexton
www.cycle2austria.com
Posts: 2,274
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Post by eskey8 on Mar 31, 2010 7:16:03 GMT
Pep Guardiola's had a decent start to his managerial career. I was also think about pep, but then hasn't he only managed Barce? I would say possibly easier to manage a team with world class players then manage a team with average players and trying to get them to play world class football. |
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Post by blockhead on Mar 31, 2010 7:37:51 GMT
these days all ex pros either pundit or manage, in the old days they all acquired businesses and played part-time, this is why it seems that reasonable players cant cut it at management these days, there is just too many staying in the game.
go on, buy a pub!
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ingham
Dave Sexton
Posts: 1,896
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Post by ingham on Mar 31, 2010 13:19:00 GMT
Interesting point Warnock makes about the hard times.
Shankly was a Scottish international, Revie an English international - and one of the few players who had a 'system' named after him, the Revie Plan - while Ramsey was England captain.
But I think the point is still an interesting one, in that the most outstanding and brilliant players rarely became successful managers - Stanley Matthews, Tom Finney, George Best, Jimmy Greaves.
And a high percentage of the big successes who were players seem also to have been defenders (Ramsey, Mercer) or midfielders (Ferguson, Shankly, Revie, Robson).
Clough an exception, of course. He certainly had a higher scoring rate than Greaves (just), but it was in a lower division, and for a much shorter period (Clough's tragic injury). And Greaves was a far bigger star.
Also intriguing, to me at least, is that many of the most successful English league managers created teams which were cagey, if not defensive and downright dirty, especially in the sixties, seventies and eighties. While one nil to the Arsenal originated, so it is said, not around their 'boring' double side of 1970-71, but Chapman's tight, organised, Alex James/Cliff Bastin team of the 30s.
Ramsey's sides were defensive, cautious, and not style-orientated. Shankly, Paisley, Revie, and Clough and Taylor constructed grim outfits which could play, but which often seemed preoccupied with reducing risk and stopping others from playing.
No doubt there are worthy managers who run small Clubs well, and long term, as Hogan says, like the former Port Vale manager whose name escapes me.
But that's the problem! It's easier to notice the obvious ones who get the headlines ;D.
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