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Post by londonranger on Jun 13, 2010 13:58:49 GMT
They stole our name. Phil,whats the history. (Our proximity to the Smuts?)
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Post by cpr on Jun 13, 2010 15:43:42 GMT
White City, South Africa Road, Bloemfontein Road, Loftus Road, Mandella Way. Don't think they stole our identity!
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Post by londonranger on Jun 13, 2010 16:07:14 GMT
So who was Loftus?
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Post by londonranger on Jun 13, 2010 16:24:32 GMT
So will go on, Robert Loftus Versfeld discovered organised ports in Pretoria. A rugby Stadium (noLoft end CP), still fascinating the
similar names, so suspect that is the connection, unless anyone know anything different. Right CP so any S. Africa, streets and roads and our stand, and so on, so this area must have had S. African settlers, I presume, although google says that E. London had many S. African settlers, Germans, relates to the Boers and the Dutch German?? anyway going too far with this, unless anyone wants to go and look it up in the Kew Registry. Maybe the Indys historians have an angle on the So.African settlers in W.!2?
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Post by saphilip on Jun 13, 2010 17:04:07 GMT
I think you will find that LR Versfeld was one of the main characters that brought together the Pretoria based Nothern Transvaal Rugby Union (now called the Blue Bulls RU but still just as formidable). It won't win the prettiest stadium of the world award but it is still a rather intmidating place - especially if it is packed to the rafters.
It is also used for the big games by Pretoria based teams the hugely popular & succesful Mamelodi Sundowns and current Champs Supersport united. The Boks also play rugby games there - although suprisingly enough it is not exactly a rugby fortress for the national team.
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 13, 2010 17:26:31 GMT
Took a south african friend of me sons, to the Leicester v QPR game, he loved the sa linked road names around LR pity about the football though and the result.
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Post by londonranger on Jun 13, 2010 18:04:58 GMT
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Post by saphilip on Jun 13, 2010 18:43:47 GMT
I'm not 100% sure - I don't think as I'm sure Loftus Road the street was named well before the rugby stadium. Loftus isn't exactly a rare name among the Afrikaans commnunity, so it could have been named after 2 different people.
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Post by saphilip on Jun 13, 2010 18:56:16 GMT
Did a bit of quick research. Robert Owen Loftus Versfeld (full name) was the first person to get organised sport up & running in the Pretoria region during the early 1920's, and thus get it the city on an even basis with more established sporting clubs in the nearby Joburg - as well as established cities like Cape Town, Durban Port Elizabeth & Kimberly.
The LV stadium was originally known as the Eastern Sportsgrounds but was changed to its current name after the sudden death of Loftus Versfled in 1932. Because the guy's surname was Versfeld not Loftus, because Loftus is a common enough name in the Afrikaner community and because QPR had moved into a Loftus Road stadium around 1917, I suspect the 2 names are not linked at all.
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 13, 2010 19:08:13 GMT
Two local pubs near the ground...Springbok, and General smuts.
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Post by saphilip on Jun 13, 2010 19:16:46 GMT
A bit of history about some of the surrounding names at Loftus Road.
Jan Smuts was a rather succesful Boer War commander who was one of the founders of the Union of SA. He went out of his way to re-establish fractured relationships between the Afrikaans & English speakers of the white community, which at times hardly endured him to members of his own community who considered him a traitor.
Despite that he was Prime Minsiter of SA during the 20's and then again during the outbreak of WW2. Considered to be SA's greatest statesman until the arrival of Nelson Mandela, he helped establish the UN after the end of WW2 and ensured that SA punched well above its weight during and just after the war. It should be pointed out that not every white South African was a supporter of the war effort (many actually supported the other side).
Criticised for being interested in world affairs rather than domestic issues, his party never really solved the problem with the balck community and in 1948 his United Party suffered a shock election loss to the National Party - who introduced Apartheid to SA.
I should point out that at this stage ther Nats actually lost the popular vote but because of the rural vote counted more than the urban vote - the Nats picked up more seats. It wasn't until a decade later that the Nats finally won the popular vote.
Smuts then retired to his home, a former mess hall, in Irene a suburb of Centurion a town right next door to Pretoria until his death in the early 1950's. His home is a very popular tourist site.
Bloemfontein is the capital, and largest city, of the Free State Province - is probably the most central city in SA and is also the Judicial centre of SA and a bit of a university city. Home to the Cheetahs Rugby Union and football team Bloem Celtic (with the most fanatical soccer fans in SA), it is about 1,300 metres above sea level and can be damn hot in summer and bloody freezing in winter.
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 13, 2010 21:22:26 GMT
The general smuts is actually situated in Bloemfontein road, just around the corner is south africa road, which runs past the grounds main entrance.
I'm supprised that there is not a road called spion kop, another very famous name from south africa.
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Post by londonranger on Jun 13, 2010 22:11:13 GMT
Thanks mates. did a bit too. Two connections with S. Africa. 1. The Heroes of the Boer War, and the locales where battles were fought. Blomfontein was one, Transvaal was another which would connect with Pretoria. Still as you say Loftus( it was a double barrelled name} came much later. Obviously Smuts, and a few other names. but for some reason this area had Boer warrish types of names. Now Loftus is an Irish name predominantly but also in Scandinavia.
The second link is the White City which held the South Africa exhibit in the 20s or 30s. Now was Loftus related to that. Who knows. The Kew registry lists massive amounts of Loftuses. There is a Napropath who practices there. Still, this may turn out to be harder than finding Tchakounte. Still not really sure how many people are interested, but for me it was fascinating to hear Loftus Versfeld stadium.
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 13, 2010 23:07:35 GMT
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Post by londonranger on Jun 14, 2010 2:29:45 GMT
OK, this is my thesis. Loftus Versfeld was born in 1863. The boer War continued into 1910 or so. Versfeld is an Afrikaaner of Boer name, Loftus could be the other parents name. Versfeld established sport in the Pretoria region while the war was on. Streets around shepherds Bush are named for Boer War heroes or cities and areas of war. I cant get any info onVersfeld in the war. but for me this is the only Loftus connection to that time in Pretoria or Transvaal. So if anyones interested, prove me wrong or right.
Incidentally I have always enjoyed watching the film Breaker Morant, an epic film about Aussies in the Boer War.
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Post by Lonegunmen on Jun 14, 2010 6:13:05 GMT
Interesting read there Phil & London. Whats the story with the threatened police etc strikes and stadium worker round ups Phil?
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Post by londonranger on Jun 14, 2010 14:59:16 GMT
More: Loftus is a suburb of Sydney Aus. Ellerslie is a suburb of Auckland New Zealand. Was this whole area named after colonial matter, SA, Aus, NZ? Rather haphazard though, if I am right.
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Post by The Scooter on Jun 14, 2010 15:03:18 GMT
All the large "houses" on the White City Estate are named after colonial/commonwealth linkages.....
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Post by haqpr1963 on Jun 14, 2010 15:06:51 GMT
I would guess that the road in the area were named after parts of the Empire after the Imperial International Exhibition in 1909.
Would explain South Africa Road, India Way, Australia Road, Commonwealth Avenue, etc.
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Post by haqpr1963 on Jun 14, 2010 15:14:29 GMT
Then again it was probably after the British Empire Games in 1934.
Since the council bought the land in 1936 and built the White City Estate.....
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Post by Macmoish on Jun 14, 2010 15:19:55 GMT
Interesting. Strangely never really thought about where the QPR area names came from.
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Post by Captain Clunge on Jun 14, 2010 20:31:46 GMT
Then again it was probably after the British Empire Games in 1934. Since the council bought the land in 1936 and built the White City Estate..... Sounds more like it. Just north of HQ there's Australia Rd, Canada Way, India Way, Commonwealth Ave, etc.
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Post by blueeyedcptcook on Jun 15, 2010 10:40:06 GMT
Londonranger, before retiring to Perth WA, I lived in the Sutherland Shire, in Sydney. Loftus, a Shire suburb is named after some ponce, wait for it, named,Lord Augustus William Frederick Spencer Loftus. He was Gov. of NSW 1878-1885. More interesting is that Sutherland was named after Forby Sutherland a Able Seaman who died during Capt Cook,s Endeavour voyage. Sutherland Pt. at Kurnell where Capt Cook first step ashore, and claimed this great country for England, is was also given his name. An early landowner, who built a hut on this site has my surname, possible a ancestor. Should I lodge a land claim.
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Post by londonranger on Jun 15, 2010 13:00:45 GMT
Up to you, Id go for it, still I think we have discovered who the Loftus of Loftus Rd is. Gov of NSW, "Going to Lord Augustus Loftus Rd. tonight? The QPR Report always get their man. First Armel then Lord Loftus. Anyone need to find a missing person and background, bring em here?!?? (Maybe Brie would have hung in if he knew we reflected the Peerage? )
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Post by saphilip on Jun 16, 2010 14:57:22 GMT
More hsitory about SA.
Spion Kop was the site of a famous battle during the Boer War and is about 50km away from Ladysmith in Northern Kwa-Zulu Natal - and is now a tourist and world heritage site.
In many respects it was a senseless battle as the British forces could have easily gone around it on their way to relieve the sieges at Ladysmith & nearby Colenso. Instead they chose to attack the well established Boer forces at this hill (a kop is a small mountain) and paid a heavy price in this rather confusing battle (at one stage both force got to the top of the hill and then promptly abandoned it).
In the end the battle was a stalemate, but because of the casualties inflicted on the British forces it was essentially a Boer victory (but short lived one). Because many soldiers killed and injured came from the Liverpool & Sheffield regions, both Liverpool & Wed named their terraces The Kop End in memory of those killed in that battle. That's probably why there is no Spion Kop link in London itself.
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Post by Lonegunmen on Jun 16, 2010 15:18:20 GMT
So how high a small Mountain is a Kop??
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 16, 2010 16:59:08 GMT
I think also, Britain were the 1st country to intriduce concentration camps, in south africa for the Boer people.
We done it before the germans ever thought of em.
Not something to be proud of.
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Post by saphilip on Jun 16, 2010 18:08:34 GMT
Concentration camps - the only similarity between Britain's & Germany's was the name.
It is a controversial subject and one reason why there was so much ill will for decades between the English & Afrikaans communities. Yes people died in their thousands in those camps, in fact more Boers & their families died in those camps than on the actual battlefield, but it was mainly from diseases in unsanitary conditions that killed them rather than a systematic policy to destroy whole communities and cultures like a certain Adolph Hitler and his cronies did.
It is probably the first, and the last time, that a country from the Western World managed to stop guerilla warfare. You see after 1900, and despite their losses, the British forces had won the conventional battles and had taken all the main strong points but the war would drag on for nearly 2 more years as the Boers resorted to guerilla tactics.
In an effort to stop it the British Army adopted a destroy & burn policy to starve the guerillas - and it resulted in them herding thousands of Boers and their kinfolk into overcrowded and unsanitary conditions. The popular myth was that the British intentionally starved them and put glass in their food but it was cholera and typhoid that killed them. In those days nobody fully understood personal hygiene and sanitary conditions - in fact far more British troops died in field hospitals & of disease than on the actual South African battlefield.
In the end I guess the means justified the ends as the Boersd were basically starved into submission but it left a very bitter nation and created so much controversy that no other Western country has attmepted to do the same to stop a guerilla uprising.
But to compare them to Auschwitz, Mathausen or Belsen is taking it a bit too far. In fact in some of their propoganda movies against Britain the Nazies brought up the concentration camp issue during the Boer war to embarrass the British - whilst murdering hundred of their own people in camps of their own.
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Post by scarletpimple on Jun 16, 2010 20:56:44 GMT
Never intended to compare us with the Nazis Phillip, just pointed out we introduced these type of camps.
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Post by cpr on Jun 16, 2010 23:11:51 GMT
The British army used similar tactica against Irish guerillas not too long afterwards.
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